Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[Sean2]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1355081049' post='6042463']
But they are not unfair. Getting out of bed every once in awhile is HARD too but we still do it. America and most every other country has become soft. Yes my golf game is different and we do play different courses. You keep playing the 110 sloped courses and i will stick to my 135 and above courses k-pookie
[/quote]

C'mon JD, as Jeff said earlier, when is golf supposed to emulate life? It's a GAME. Why not let the average guy have a bit of fun with it? Some things are supposed to be hard (USMC boot camp for one), as they should be. A game? Up to a point.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1355069904' post='6041727']
I suppose we should've seen this one coming in retrospect, but i'm still a little surprised at how this thread turned out. Personally i don't really understand the argument that courses can never be too hard. I mean if someone designed a course with 18 island greens, 15 foot wide fairways and blind shots galore i don't think it would be a popular course other then a novelty attraction. Also on the other hand, a course that is 18 straight 300yd straighforward par 4's would be no fun either because it would be too easy.

I don't get the comment that "life isn't fair" so golf shouldn't be? First of all i never read in the rule book that golf was supposed to be exactly like life, secondly what does that mean? That if you were deserving of a promotion and got passed over, a golf course should be designed with impossible pin locations to emulate that? And life, at least in developed countries, actually seems quite a bit easier then golf by comparison. Most players pretty much suck at golf, the average handicap being 15-16 and in actuality surely much higher then that since most of the worst players don't keep a handicap. People seem to be doing a lot better at life. So maybe according to that argument golf SHOULD be easier. I've seen a lot of people drift through life aimlessly and still afford apartments and a car, i can't imagine someone drifting aimlessly through a Pete Dye design

I think Sean just wanted to highlight the growing trend (started by guys like Mr Dye) to place a much higher emphasis on the penal side of courses. Adding multiple shots where there is no bailout, it's either hit the shot well or make double. To me there is a place for that in golf, but not really multiple times in the same round, hole after hole. I'm sure there are a lot of courses out there that are suitable for even the hackeriest of the hacker (pepperturbo made a good point about golfer having to know their skill level and play courses accordingly), but it does seem that a lot of new courses tend to go for the grand scale and penal nature of the modern design. I've seen this at my own home course, where our old course is very playable and strategic and the newly designed one basically beats you over the head with OB and water. Guys who are 8-12 handicaps (not bad players in the end) really don't like the new course, and it slows down play which is no fun for anyone.

Several guys in the thread have pointed out that it's not even that hard to design a course that is challenging for good golfers, but playable for bad ones. The "modern" design seems to be influenced by courses like TPC sawgrass or Whistling straights or Kiawah and not courses like St Andrews
[/quote]

I too, am saddened by many of the posts in this thread. It is great to have a take from a good player who also has some insight to the game. Thank you sir.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1355083166' post='6042627']
I honestly really like tobacco road. There are a lot of forced carries, the fairways are not as wide as you would think but yes the biggest thing there is being on the correct side. It is pure target golf. A yardage book is a must. I could play it everyday and not get bored with it. I got paired with a 2 some and they quite after 9 holes because they were so fed up with it. They were complaining that the greens were to fast, that they couldn't see where they were going. They lost a ton of golf balls.

Well I can honestly say they couldn't hit a ball 200 yards in the air so that was there biggest issue. Funny enough they were two guys on a golf trip from canada. They were nice guys but you could tell they play nothing but courses with down and back fairways.
[/quote]

Tobacco Road is very playable for a single digit with reasonable control of their golf ball. For the average player and above, it's an absolute nightmare.

[duffer987]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1355081751' post='6042509']
Then do you think your course is unfair? Since you play such a "hard" course it surely must be unfair. They should probably flatten every green....... no more bunkers because they are not thinking of the average golfer there.


Then while we are on the subject- How about Tobacco Road---- I tipped it out the first time I ever played it shot 65 and thought really that is all this course was! All you have to do it hit it straight. Tobacco road is suppose to be one of the hardest so they say
[/quote]

Impressive stuff if you can shoot a 65 first time seeing a course rated 73/150. You are obviously a top notch golfer... or really bad at math. No no, I am sure it's the golfer one.
Anyways, it is unfortunate your hubris blinds you to the fact that a miniscule percentage of golfers are at the same lofty levels you are and that it is probably better if course designers can actually show some creativity and design courses playable/challenging for all, then just having moats full of lava and greens that only a Cubist could identify.

[Sean2]

JD the average golfer rarely hits it straight.

[kg92lefty]

People complain about nicklaus courses because his difficulty is all in the greens and where you are around the cup... the part of the game golfers do not practice, all they care about is hitting it 17 yards further each year.

[Snufles]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-05-01/sports/ct-spt-0502-box-18-holes-pete-dye--20100430_1_dye-lick-pete

Guess Pete didn't want to kill his HC.

[KDMullins]

They should make Dye play from the back tees at French Lick every time he plays. 8,100+ yards in Indiana? That would be like 10,000 in Colorado or the desert. Just stupid.

[SurfDuffer]

Perhaps its just me but I think those complaining about course difficulty reveal more about themselves than about the courses or the designers they complain about.

I've played a lot of courses including courses that GD included in their list of the 50 most difficult courses and I've never encountered any of these "Unfair Courses".

[Sean2]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355237263' post='6050807']
Perhaps its just me but I think those complaining about course difficulty reveal more about themselves than about the courses or the designers they complain about.

I've played a lot of courses including courses that GD included in their list of the 50 most difficult courses and I've never encountered any of these "Unfair Courses".
[/quote]

Sigh...

You still don't get it SurfDuffer.

[ryancjordan]

Sorry Sean, I think you're missing the point. You and your "facts" can waste all the time they want in this argument, but you can't overcome the logicless, often repeated. "Life isn't fair, so why should golf be?". People who repeat that without considering what it means are obviously correct and you are wrong. Sorry you're too naive to see it.

/sarcasm

[Pepperturbo]

Many in this tread don't realize it, but they substantiate, by and large, recent generations are lost when it comes to overcoming life's obstacles. Watching someone play 18 holes or reading posts in threads like this are microcosms of many lives.

[Sean2]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1355266453' post='6053129']
Sorry Sean, I think you're missing the point. You and your "facts" can waste all the time they want in this argument, but you can't overcome the logicless, often repeated. "Life isn't fair, so why should golf be?". People who repeat that without considering what it means are obviously correct and you are wrong. Sorry you're too naive to see it.

/sarcasm
[/quote]

Apparently so Ryan. :-)

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355271086' post='6053445']
Many in this tread don't realize it, but they substantiate, by and large, recent generations are lost when it comes to overcoming life's obstacles. Watching someone play 18 holes or reading posts in threads like this are microcosms of many lives.
[/quote]

If only you knew what obstacles some of us have overcome Pepper. Perhaps that's why some of us are more empathetic than others when it comes to a GAME Pepper.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355272915' post='6053591']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355271086' post='6053445']
Many in this tread don't realize it, but they substantiate, by and large, recent generations are lost when it comes to overcoming life's obstacles. Watching someone play 18 holes or reading posts in threads like this are microcosms of many lives.
[/quote]

If only you knew what obstacles some of us have overcome Pepper. Perhaps that's why some of us are more empathetic than others when it comes to a GAME Pepper.
[/quote]

I feel for those that can't... and proud of those that persist and overcome. But have nothing for those that can, but don't, opting for the world to be made easier around them. Its a frame of mind Sean2. I am nearing 65 with bad knees, and fight every day to just maintain, as my body naturally deteriorates, despite going to the gym every other day since HS. I don't give in or give up. That's the reason why I use the word whining. I will be fighting till the day I die, and want to go out that way.

PS - Yes, it's a game, but fighting obstacles to stay in the game is what life is about.

[SurfDuffer]

Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355273711' post='6053673']
I feel for those that can't... and proud of those that persist and overcome. But have nothing for those that can, but don't, opting for the world to be made easier around them. Its a frame of mind Sean2. I am nearing 65 with bad knees, and fight every day to just maintain, as my body naturally deteriorates, despite going to the gym every other day since HS. I don't give in or give up. That's the reason why I use the word whining. I will be fighting till the day I die, and want to go out that way.

PS - Yes, it's a game, but fighting obstacles to stay in the game is what life is about.
[/quote]

That's great, and I don't disagree with those comments. You must realize, however, that the two greatest problems facing golf today are the expense to play and the time it takes to play, both of which can be attributed (at least in part) to the fact that most new golf courses are far too expensive to maintain and too difficult for the people that play them. The cost of the expanse of land needed to create these courses, the excessive chemicals needed to make them look like Augusta year round, and to maintain all the hazards, including bunkers, fescue, etc., are necessarily passed on to the consumer, and the difficulty of the 7,000 yard, 130 slope, 10+ stimp course that's left makes it such that you can't leave your home, play golf, and get back in 6 hours. Most agree that's a problem for the future of this great game.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

Nice try, but absurd examples at the far end of either side of the spectrum do nothing to further the debate.

To answer your question, no that's not unfair. It would be better, however, if there was a forced carry that offered a good birdie opportunity to the better player, yet a reasonable way around the hazard for the lesser player.

...and nobody's feeling are hurt. We're discussing what many believe (including the PGA of effing America) to be a serious threat to the future of golf.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

We are talking about extremes here too much. I don't think many people would really argue that courses should be designed that don't need basic competence. I know i am not and i'm sure some of the "whining" comments are directed at posts i've made. I don't have an issue with a 150yd forced carry on some holes or a course that has general hazards on it. I mean i'm sure we can all find a happy medium that allows 15 handicaps to enjoy a course without losing 12 balls and providing a challenge for a 1-2 handicap.

So i'll ask you a serious question, what level of player do you feel courses should be designed for? Should they be designed with the scratch in mind or the 10 handicap?

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355273711' post='6053673']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355272915' post='6053591']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355271086' post='6053445']
Many in this tread don't realize it, but they substantiate, by and large, recent generations are lost when it comes to overcoming life's obstacles. Watching someone play 18 holes or reading posts in threads like this are microcosms of many lives.
[/quote]

If only you knew what obstacles some of us have overcome Pepper. Perhaps that's why some of us are more empathetic than others when it comes to a GAME Pepper.
[/quote]

I feel for those that can't... and proud of those that persist and overcome. But have nothing for those that can, but don't, opting for the world to be made easier around them. Its a frame of mind Sean2. I am nearing 65 with bad knees, and fight every day to just maintain, as my body naturally deteriorates, despite going to the gym every other day since HS. I don't give in or give up. That's the reason why I use the word whining. I will be fighting till the day I die, and want to go out that way.

PS - Yes, it's a game, but fighting obstacles to stay in the game is what life is about.
[/quote]

I'm only 57 Pepper, and I'm not a big fan of whining either. That's not what this is about. Most people wouldn't expect a man to run a race with a broken ankle. Some of today's golf courses expect just that...to extend the metaphor.

[Sean2]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

That's a bit over the top SurfDuffer. As Jeff said, basic competence is required, and 100 to 150 yard forced carries are not unreasonable. No one's feelings are hurt, and no one's asking for courses with slopes of 100 either.

[James Thomas]

Oh my, my, my. I have read every post in this thread, and I have to ask, whatever happened to "if you play golf, you're my friend"?

[Sean2]

[quote name='James Thomas' timestamp='1355285963' post='6054995']
Oh my, my, my. I have read every post in this thread, and I have to ask, whatever happened to "if you play golf, you're my friend"?
[/quote]

No kidding. I mentioned quite a while back that we all share the same thing: a passion for golf. I guess that's not enough. :-)

[SurfDuffer]

Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

 

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?

 

We are talking about extremes here too much. I don't think many people would really argue that courses should be designed that don't need basic competence. I know i am not and i'm sure some of the "whining" comments are directed at posts i've made. I don't have an issue with a 150yd forced carry on some holes or a course that has general hazards on it. I mean i'm sure we can all find a happy medium that allows 15 handicaps to enjoy a course without losing 12 balls and providing a challenge for a 1-2 handicap.

 

So i'll ask you a serious question, what level of player do you feel courses should be designed for? Should they be designed with the scratch in mind or the 10 handicap?

 

A course where a 15 handicap loses 12 balls?????? Really???? Someone that is a 15 handicap shouldn't be losing 12 balls in a round but that's another thread altogether. Where are all these mysterious unfair courses???? I've played pretty much everything within an hour's drive of my home and I haven't seen a single one of these unfair courses. I've even played a couple listed by GD in the 50 most difficult and those aren't unfair either.

 

Stone Harbor for example is ranked 42nd most difficult...I play there a few times a year...its a difficult and goofy layout but its not unfair in any way. Here are two holes pictured below. On the right is the 18th. Island fairway 150 from the tee then you have to hit to a green guarded by water. Is this unfair to you???? I say no. To the left is an island par 3 with a variety of tees to choose from. Is this one unfair too??? I say no.

 

 

 

Another photo of one of my favorite holes. Is this one unfair????

 

 

A course should be built for the type of golfers the builder wants to attract. Its as simple as that. If I wanted to attract the over 70 crowd and have thriving seniors leagues I'd build one way and If I wanted to attract people who have any sort of real golf game I'd build a completely different way.

 

I suppose you'd really hate my views on requiring basic skills to join a club?????

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355279351' post='6054319']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

That's a bit over the top SurfDuffer. As Jeff said, basic competence is required, and 100 to 150 yard forced carries are not unreasonable. No one's feelings are hurt, and no one's asking for courses with slopes of 100 either.
[/quote]

That is exactly what you are advocating. To use another person's analogy you want the basket lowered because average people can't make a basket on a 10 foot hoop.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355315907' post='6055729']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355279351' post='6054319']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

That's a bit over the top SurfDuffer. As Jeff said, basic competence is required, and 100 to 150 yard forced carries are not unreasonable. No one's feelings are hurt, and no one's asking for courses with slopes of 100 either.
[/quote]

That is exactly what you are advocating. To use another person's analogy you want the basket lowered because average people can't make a basket on a 10 foot hoop.
[/quote]

Step out of the bubble and join us.

[Snufles]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355315907' post='6055729']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355279351' post='6054319']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

That's a bit over the top SurfDuffer. As Jeff said, basic competence is required, and 100 to 150 yard forced carries are not unreasonable. No one's feelings are hurt, and no one's asking for courses with slopes of 100 either.
[/quote]

That is exactly what you are advocating. To use another person's analogy you want the basket lowered because average people can't make a basket on a 10 foot hoop.
[/quote]


A proper course design allows both short hitters and long ballers to compete fairly. Sadly most courses love to put the waste area right at the beginning of the hole. Why not put a 100 yard waste area in the 220 to 320 to stop the long ballers from pulling driver on a few holes forcing them to arrive in 2 as well?

Or put a nice little kink in the fairway around the 175ish mark stopping guys from smacking a 300 yard drives unless they can bend it or face running off into the woods.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355315907' post='6055729']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355279351' post='6054319']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355276387' post='6053959']
Is it unfair for a golf course to have a hole that requires a 100 or 150 yard forced carry over a hazard???? Simple question.

It is terribly unfair that a sport could involve any level of basic competence. How can we make this game more fair for those who's feelings are hurt by all this unfairness?
[/quote]

That's a bit over the top SurfDuffer. As Jeff said, basic competence is required, and 100 to 150 yard forced carries are not unreasonable. No one's feelings are hurt, and no one's asking for courses with slopes of 100 either.
[/quote]

That is exactly what you are advocating. To use another person's analogy you want the basket lowered because average people can't make a basket on a 10 foot hoop.
[/quote]

No, they just suspend the rule about dribbling when they people playing it are wheel-chair bound.

You keep looking at this problem from the perspective of someone who is young, fit, (male) and strong. But the challenges of the game become very different when you are elderly or a female golfer. Where generating the amount of clubhead speed necessary to hit the sort of high, soft-landing shots that many modern courses demand becomes difficult.

One local course that I used to play on its 18th hole had a 180yd forced carry OVER WATER to reach the FAIRWAY...[i][b]from the white tees. [/b][/i]From the blue tees, the carry was 215 yds. On what is essentially a municipal course. That is an unreasonable test for the typical recreational golfer. Especially if that player is a senior.

Fortunately, I live in a golf-rich area, where there are many (more reasonably designed) courses for players to choose from. But not everyone in the country is so lucky.

The point being made is not that EVERY course should be the 6300 yd, slope 105 course like the second 18 at one of the local universities. But that there SHOULD be courses that ARE being built that are more user-friendly to the average player. Not every course need to have delusions of granduer that its going to host signficant tournmanents or draw the regular play of highly-skilled players.

[Imp]

[quote name='James Thomas' timestamp='1355285963' post='6054995']
Oh my, my, my. I have read every post in this thread, and I have to ask, whatever happened to "if you play golf, you're my friend"?
[/quote]Did you just call me a [i]red solo cup? [/i] Thems fightin werds! I'm a BLUE solo cup!

I think there are just some cases where logic, age, experience just doesn't get through. This is one of such threads where the 'been there done that' crowd tries to impart some knowledge to those that are set in their ways. Best i've learned is not to bring yourself down to their level and just move on (and that's why there's an ignore function on most forums).

--kC

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1355318366' post='6055835']

You keep looking at this problem from the perspective of someone who is young, fit, (male) and strong.
[/quote]

Absolutely wrong. I'm looking at this as an avid golfer. Perhaps golf isn't for everyone???? Have you considered that possibility????? Should courses be built to accomodate people who play 3 or 4 times a year and lack basic skills??? Good lord no!!!! If those folks want to come out and experience golf on a real golf course they have to take what they get and not complain about it.