Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355859352' post='6086937']
As I said in the pm, it makes no difference what you or others think of me... I am not looking for new unbalanced best friends. There, you feel better? My only purpose in the PM was these ridiculous personalized posts detract from the thread topic.
[/quote]

Feel better!

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1355859775' post='6086987']
How about this analogy:

If suddenly every ski resort in the country only had double black diamond runs, very few people would take up skiing and most intermediate level skiers and older folks would stop skiing.

I think that this is somewhat analogous to what happened with golf course design starting in the 1980's that has created an imbalance in the types and quantities of courses available. This has, IMO contributed to the contraction in the number of golfers while the number of courses has exploded since then.

For example, one of the "muni's" built in my area is a very fine golf course and one of my favorites to play (Fieldstone), designed by Arthur Hills. However, the course rating from the tips is 74.6/147 (which I sometimes play) and from the middle tees (where friends and I normally play) is 71.7/141. No problem, as I said it's one of my favorites. It used to even host the Monday qualifier for the Buick open and annually hosts Mi Am qualifiers. Larrybud and I won the 2 man scramble there this year so we both really like the course and play it several times/year. But it's almost impossible to walk the course (long green to tee distances) and I've never seen anyone do it (not sure if it's even allowed). Weekend greens fees range from $42-$55. It has 8 forced carries off the tee (even the forward men's tees), and several forced carries to greens. Marshland and hazards galore. Hence the 147 slope. If you don't have a single digit index, and aren't hitting it really well, you're probably not going to have a very good time. Since opening, the course has operated at a net loss.

However, formerly there was a privately owned 27 hole course on that site called Arrowhead that was bought by the city and plowed under to build Fieldstone. I can't find an old scorecard for it, but it was a more typical old school course. Probably a 118-124 slope would be my guess from the back tees. Inexpensive to play. Probably $25 or less for 18. I used to stop in often on Saturday mornings and play a quick 9 on my way to visit my parents about 20 years ago. The kind of course that really appealed to average players, hosted many golf leagues and was easy to walk. Not a really short course either (they had a 232 yard par 3 on my favorite 9 for example). But very few forced carries, not many hazards. very typical midwestern parkland style course built in the 50's or 60's.

This trend of plowing under older courses and building "championship" courses has happened all over the country. It has made golf less accessible for juniors, beginners, old people, high handicappers, women and those of more limited financial means.

There is unquestionably a place for both types of courses. The problem as I see it, is that there is now an imbalance, which has contributed to the contraction in the number of players and threatens the long term financial viability of these championship courses, which are much more expensive to build and operate.

Similar to as if every ski resort build since 1980 only had black and double black diamond runs.
[/quote]

I started my Golf "career" 8 yrs ago on a 6800 yrds, slope 142 course and played 27-36 holes per day (walking), every day (250+/yr). Was there for 5 yrs, never got tired of playing that course, until 2 yrs ago. I moved to a 53 yr/old course 12 mins from my house. The former was 50 min one way.

I'm beginning to better understand your position but, more important, mine. I guess it would be a very small leap from more difficult to unfair.

[Sean2]

Okay, maybe Luke Donald, Barney Adams, and Mike Keiser have more caché. I was sitting in my doctor's office today and there was a February 2012 issue of SI sitting there. I ran across an article where Luke, Barney and Mike (and a couple others) were being interviewed. Here is part of that conversation:

[b]Adams[/b]: Our game is very infections, but when you take those beginners...and put them on a course that's on a course that's too long and too difficult you lose them. I maintain that's what's happening. [In reference to golf losing people. From 2009 to 2010 1.1 million people left the game].

Later on in the interview, Luke Donald:

[b]Donald[/b]: I have great respect for Pete Dye, but he did more to hurt golf than anybody else in the history. He built course like PGA West, Kiawah Island, Sawgrass and others. These courses are much too difficult, and other designers and developers followed his lead. Their new courses subsequently made the game too difficult for amateurs. [Donald talked about the design of the greens, the depth of bunkers, forced carries, and water hazards.]

[b]Keiser[/b] [developer of Bandon Dunes]: So when Robert Trent Jones Sr. asked [people...who want golf courses built], "What do you want?" the best they could blurt out was "A Championship course." Championship means hard. Narrow fairways. Huge bunkers.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355879020' post='6088503']
Okay, maybe Luke Donald, Barney Adams, and Mike Keiser have more caché. I was sitting in my doctor's office today and there was a February 2012 issue of SI sitting there. I ran across an article where Luke, Barney and Mike (and a couple others) were being interviewed. Here is part of that conversation:

[b]Adams[/b]: Our game is very infections, but when you take those beginners...and put them on a course that's on a course that's too long and too difficult you lose them. I maintain that's what's happening. [In reference to golf losing people. From 2009 to 2010 1.1 million people left the game].

Later on in the interview, Luke Donald:

[b]Donald[/b]: I have great respect for Pete Dye, but he did more to hurt golf than anybody else in the history. He built course like PGA West, Kiawah Island, Sawgrass and others. These courses are much too difficult, and other designers and developers followed his lead. Their new courses subsequently made the game too difficult for amateurs. [Donald talked about the design of the greens, the depth of bunkers, forced carries, and water hazards.]

[b]Keiser[/b] [developer of Bandon Dunes]: So when Robert Trent Jones Sr. asked [people], "What do you want?" the best they could blurt out was "A Championship course." Championship means hard. Narrow fairways. Huge bunkers.
[/quote]

This thread's been entertaining, but honestly, I can't even see how this issue is debatable at this point. Most everybody who knows anything about anything agrees that the courses built during the last 30 years are too difficult. The volume of opinions to the contrary and the manner and tone with which they're being advanced in this thread is baffling. It's as if we live in two different worlds.

[hoganfan924]

Donald, Keiser and Adams should just suck it up and stop whining already. Sheesh! lol

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355880744' post='6088693']
This thread's been entertaining, but honestly, I can't even see how this issue is debatable at this point. [b]Most everybody who knows anything about anything agrees that the courses built during the last 30 years are too difficult.[/b] The volume of opinions to the contrary and the manner and tone with which they're being advanced in this thread is baffling. It's as if we live in two different worlds.
[/quote]

Your first statement is accurate, however the following bold broad remark is why its not debatable. It claims one groups who knows anything, agrees... while suggesting those with opposite perspectives know nothing. You and others might agree, but not all tour golfers, designers, developers and better golfers think all courses built during the last 30yrs are too difficult.

The golf writer asked questions of certain people with the intent to substantiate his/her perspective on a given subject; also to feed its readers. The unbalance aspect is they are not seeking out people with opposing or compromising views. Not unlike the anchoring subject. The other aspect that's over looked regarding tour pros like Donald public opinions are they have to feed their followers, through magazines, tweets or FB, so they get paid. Can't imagine too many would come out with blunt remarks to the contrary, knowing a large segment of their followers are average golfers. People that think as I do, on the other hand, speak without regard for whether or not others like whats said. We can agree on one thought. We live in two different worlds.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355882361' post='6088817']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355880744' post='6088693']
This thread's been entertaining, but honestly, I can't even see how this issue is debatable at this point. [b]Most everybody who knows anything about anything agrees that the courses built during the last 30 years are too difficult.[/b] The volume of opinions to the contrary and the manner and tone with which they're being advanced in this thread is baffling. It's as if we live in two different worlds.
[/quote]

Your first statement is accurate, however the following bold broad remark is why its not debatable. It claims one groups who knows anything, agrees... while suggesting those with opposite perspectives know nothing. You and others might agree, but not all tour golfers, designers, developers and better golfers think all courses built during the last 30yrs are too difficult.

The golf writer asked questions of certain people with the intent to substantiate his/her perspective on a given subject; also to feed its readers. The unbalance aspect is they are not seeking out people with opposing or compromising views. Not unlike the anchoring subject. The other aspect that's over looked regarding tour pros like Donald public opinions are they have to feed their followers, through magazines, tweets or FB, so they get paid. Can't imagine too many would come out with blunt remarks to the contrary, knowing a large segment of their followers are average golfers. People that think as I do, on the other hand, speak without regard for whether or not others like whats said. We can agree on one thought. We live in two different worlds.
[/quote]

Well, maybe I spoke too soon. Can you cite some golf insider and/or literature that suggests otherwise?

I mean anybody can have any opinion they want I suppose, but I've not heard any person learned in the industry make a similar argument. I think the "unfair" in the thread title got people going initially, and while I don't agree that new golf courses are unfair, I thought it was pretty well accepted that the difficulty of modern golf courses was not good for the growth of the game, or even sustaining the game at historical levels.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.

[Bulle Rock Golf]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]

"[color=#282828]Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing"[/color]

This. This is the problem.

[Imp]

[i]This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/123677-surfduffer/"][color="#353535"]SurfDuffer[/color][/url].[/i]

Ahh, much better.

--kC

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1355924499' post='6090501']
[i]This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/123677-surfduffer/"][color=#353535]SurfDuffer[/color][/url].[/i]

Ahh, much better.

--kC
[/quote]

Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

[Sean2]

At my practice facility I will play all three sets of tee boxes. I do this for a few reasons. First, I play 99% of my golf there and it's nice just to see the course from a different perspective. Second, playing from different tees requires different strategies on each hole. Three, I get to use all of my clubs, and am not just hitting the same clubs all of the time. Four, I like to see how my scores vary from tee box to tee box. Five, it's fun.

[Desert Golf]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='Bulle Rock Golf' timestamp='1355923740' post='6090445']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]

"[color=#282828]Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing"[/color]

This. This is the problem.
[/quote]

It probably is the problem, but the fact is we all do have ego's. At least he's willing to admit why he doesn't want to play up there. Unfortuantly the stigma is there that playing more forward tees make you "less" than. Its easier on the ego to play the further back "mans" tees and struggle (which you can always find a excuse for why you played poorly) than move up a set or two. Think of the Tim Allen character in Tool Time, a "man's man", that type of persona is not going to be playing forward. Until that stigma is not there, I don't think you'll see a great movement forward in tee boxes.

I've seen this done one time on a course. It was scramble on a nine hole course with minimum drive requirements for each player (which included several players in their 70's). This particular course is fairly short from the front, but quite long from the back, and using some of these players drives on the back side is almost impossible. What the course did was stagger the white and blue boxes, on four holes the whites were up and the blues back, and on the other five holes they were reversed. It gave a mixture on each nine. I wonder is something like that might help. For those who shouldn't but do insist on playing the wrong tees, at least some of them will be shorter, and it also might take away some of that "sting" from being on a shorter set of tees. I don't know, just a thought.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1355929743' post='6090787']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.
[/quote]


Sounds like we have poster boy for common sense way to enjoy nearly "ANY" golf course. Leave the ego in the trunk, and choose the right tees so GIR are possible; what a novelty.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1355930771' post='6090875']
[quote name='Bulle Rock Golf' timestamp='1355923740' post='6090445']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]

"[color=#282828]Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing"[/color]

This. This is the problem.
[/quote]

It probably is the problem, but the fact is we all do have ego's. At least he's willing to admit why he doesn't want to play up there. Unfortuantly the stigma is there that playing more forward tees make you "less" than. Its easier on the ego to play the further back "mans" tees and struggle (which you can always find a excuse for why you played poorly) than move up a set or two. Think of the Tim Allen character in Tool Time, a "man's man", that type of persona is not going to be playing forward. Until that stigma is not there, I don't think you'll see a great movement forward in tee boxes.

I've seen this done one time on a course. It was scramble on a nine hole course with minimum drive requirements for each player (which included several players in their 70's). This particular course is fairly short from the front, but quite long from the back, and using some of these players drives on the back side is almost impossible. What the course did was stagger the white and blue boxes, on four holes the whites were up and the blues back, and on the other five holes they were reversed. It gave a mixture on each nine. I wonder is something like that might help. For those who shouldn't but do insist on playing the wrong tees, at least some of them will be shorter, and it also might take away some of that "sting" from being on a shorter set of tees. I don't know, just a thought.
[/quote]


I agree with your perspective regarding ego and....

People are arguing developers should spend "more" money to provide them with an increased number of easier courses", when in actuality, the majority of current courses offer the option of moving up to easier tees, but we won't move up because of our ego. When the argument is framed in that manner, it lacks common sense practicality and judgment regarding the subject. That line of thinking is more than likely contributing to high scoring too.

I can't help but think, even after changing the color of tee markers, those with ego issues are likely to assess which color tees equate to the man's old blue tees and pick them. Considering Freud's definition of Ego and ID, this problem is likely driven by ID.

[mwmgolfx]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1355929743' post='6090787']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.
[/quote]

Amen brother, I can't count the number of people I've seen this year playing the wrong tees. At one course, a guy that was on his 4th round ever was playing the tips!, Geez give me a break.

I too go for 6300 or less - But I have a couple of major issues:
1) In a number of tournaments due to my handicap I'm forced to 6800-7000 yard tees. Guess what, i can't play those any more effectively. No chance whatsoever. And no choice, play those tees or don't play -- that's my only option; some option
2) At a number of courses, even though I wanted to play a shorter tee, the shorter tees were not USGA rated for me, so I couldn't use the score for handicap purposes and the people I was playing with were insisting that we had to play a "rated" tee set. Again, forced to longer tees forced to use.

I admire the way a number of UK courses manage their courses. A) if you don't have a certain handicap level (provable), you don't play the course. And you play the members tees only. Only special exceptions get to play the back tees. To me this is very reasonable and playable.

I've seen 20 and 30 handicap players try to play Bethpage Black. And of course, even the white are way too difficult so they spend all day looking for balls. And half the time, they play the back tees which makes for an even longer day.

[SurfDuffer]

I see people on the course all the time who I think have no business at all being on a course to begin with. So many people without even the most basic skills. Those folks belong on the practice range, par 3 courses and so forth until they get the basics down. At the very least these folks should be restricted to afternoon play when the course is empty. It's like someone who can't swim a lap in a pool trying to swim the English Channel.

[Antnee94]

[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1355939904' post='6091541']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1355929743' post='6090787']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.
[/quote]

Amen brother, I can't count the number of people I've seen this year playing the wrong tees. At one course, a guy that was on his 4th round ever was playing the tips!, Geez give me a break.

I too go for 6300 or less - But I have a couple of major issues:
1) In a number of tournaments due to my handicap I'm forced to 6800-7000 yard tees. Guess what, i can't play those any more effectively. No chance whatsoever. And no choice, play those tees or don't play -- that's my only option; some option
2) At a number of courses, even though I wanted to play a shorter tee, the shorter tees were not USGA rated for me, so I couldn't use the score for handicap purposes and the people I was playing with were insisting that we had to play a "rated" tee set. Again, forced to longer tees forced to use.

I admire the way a number of UK courses manage their courses. A) if you don't have a certain handicap level (provable), you don't play the course. And you play the members tees only. Only special exceptions get to play the back tees. To me this is very reasonable and playable.

I've seen 20 and 30 handicap players try to play Bethpage Black. And of course, even the white are way too difficult so they spend all day looking for balls. And half the time, they play the back tees which makes for an even longer day.
[/quote]


I am the average golfer, probably a little bit better. I would not consider myself a long hitter but I am longer than the average Joe and can carry my driver anywhere between 235 yards on off center hits to 250 on perfect hits. But long courses scare me.

I'm fortunate to live a few miles from Bethpage. I love the Black, but to be honest, I can only take the beating 2-3 times a year at most. I play all 5 Bethpage courses and the three at Eisenhower Park (Red is where they once played a Champions Tour Event). I don't have the time to practice a lot and want to play when the weekend comes around or if I have any time off. Considering how little I practice I brought my handicap down to an 11 this year and shot between 77-79 four times (so I am better than the average golfer).

I played Black twice this year and shot 94 both time from the white tees. Black, if I remember correctly plays 6680 from the white tee boxes. I am maxed out. I know my abilities, I play courses anywhere from 6000-6500 yards always trying for find the 6400 as my optimal course length. That's the distance I have the most fun and have the chance to shoot lower scores. But I've also ballooned some scores on those same courses. It's still long enough to give me a challenge on majority of holes, but short enough as well to hit high lofted clubs into greens and boost my ego. I'm not going out once or twice a week to get my teeth knocked in. When I'm a single digit and can drive the ball 280 consistently I will think differently. Right now I want to have fun, shoot some low rounds and go home looking forward to the next round.

I play all of the other Bethpage Courses, Yellow and Green are short which are maxed out at 6000-6200 yards, but are challenging. I've shot some of my 70 somethings on them, and 90 somethings as well. Out of the five times I've ever shot in the 70s, four of those rounds came on courses between 6000-6300 yards. Guess what...I shoot lower scores on shorter courses. Big surprise right?

One of my Black rounds this summer included 6 pars and 2 birdies. But yet I could only muster a 94. Do the math on some of the other holes and the trouble I got myself in. Knowing that course real well, I was extremely happy to have 8 holes of at least par. Hell, that was almost half the holes. At any of the other courses I play (Eisenhhower or the other Bethpage ones), those double and triple bogey's would have probably been bogey at worst, meaning I would have been right around 79-82. I'm going home happy.

Here is another example from playing Black. Back in 2009, we had a 7A time on Bethpage Yellow. When we got to the course there was a 1:30P open on Black for a twosome. The friend I was playing never played Black and is a scratch golfer. Being on the back end of a 36 hole day and Black was the back end, I played from the forward tees and shot 92. Some holes I hit 5 iron off the tee to keep it in the fairway because I could. I actually want to do this again.

It took me years to get good enough to keep up with some of my cousins who are all low single digit bombers. They all play from the tips (and can). Now I let them go play the course at 7000 yards and play a tee up. At least I enjoy myself. But, here is where I'm really happy. There are some courses where the tips are between 6500-6600 yards. I can finally play those tees with them. Those are short courses for them. And my 82-85s become 88-92s. But I can finally keep up.

Bottom line is, don't let ego get in the way. I stopped doing that. And I'm having more fun.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355950044' post='6092305']
I see people on the course all the time who I think have no business at all being on a course to begin with. So many people without even the most basic skills. Those folks belong on the practice range, par 3 courses and so forth until they get the basics down. At the very least these folks should be restricted to afternoon play when the course is empty. It's like someone who can't swim a lap in a pool trying to swim the English Channel.
[/quote]

Exactly.. When I took up the game over twenty years back, a friend, who had been playing since college, gave me some sage advice. Stay on the range and executive tracks till I had reasonable control over the ball. I can't count the times I've told people that same advice.

[Sean2]

[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1355939904' post='6091541']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1355929743' post='6090787']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.
[/quote]

Amen brother, I can't count the number of people I've seen this year playing the wrong tees. At one course, a guy that was on his 4th round ever was playing the tips!, Geez give me a break.

I too go for 6300 or less - But I have a couple of major issues:
1) In a number of tournaments due to my handicap I'm forced to 6800-7000 yard tees. Guess what, i can't play those any more effectively. No chance whatsoever. And no choice, play those tees or don't play -- that's my only option; some option
2) At a number of courses, even though I wanted to play a shorter tee, the shorter tees were not USGA rated for me, so I couldn't use the score for handicap purposes and the people I was playing with were insisting that we had to play a "rated" tee set. Again, forced to longer tees forced to use.

I admire the way a number of UK courses manage their courses. A) if you don't have a certain handicap level (provable), you don't play the course. And you play the members tees only. Only special exceptions get to play the back tees. To me this is very reasonable and playable.

I've seen 20 and 30 handicap players try to play Bethpage Black. And of course, even the white are way too difficult so they spend all day looking for balls. And half the time, they play the back tees which makes for an even longer day.
[/quote]


I gotta smile out of your first point. I'm in the same boat. I joined one of those amateur tours and asked what tees I'd be playing from (I'm a senior). The handicap committee chair assured me I'd be playing between 6000 to 6300 depending on the tournament. I asked about my HI. He said, no problem. Okay, fine. I show up to my first tournament and I'm assigned 6900 yards. Wait, what? I shoot 42 on the front, which is pretty darn good considering I'm hitting a fairway wood into every par 4 and into every par 3 (except one, where I had to hit driver). Anyway, we get to the back nine and there is this one hole which requires a tee shot carry of 250 yards. Oh well. Needless to say, it wasn't a fun round of golf.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355954269' post='6092653']
[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1355939904' post='6091541']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1355929743' post='6090787']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355919977' post='6090293']
[quote][list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
[color=#282828]I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[/color][/quote]

This statement totally baffles me. Is the writer serious???? First he complains about the length of holes and that he has to hit hybrids and woods into holes. Then he complains that playing farther up is the "Senior Tees" and its too embarrassing for his [b]fragile ego[/b]. Clearly the way he describes his own game he belongs on the furthest up tees he can get. The course is not causing him embarrassment [b]His Game Is Causing Him Embarrassment!!!![/b] Is there some designation on those tees calling them Senior tees???? Is there a sign telling you to hang your head in shame if you must play from them???? I just don't get this mentality.

Heck, my buddy and I play our home course from all of the tees even the lady's tees. It keeps the course interesting. Some holes are actually more challenging from the front tees than they are from the tips. We are not the least bit embarrassed to play any tee we please.
[/quote]


I agree that playing from the incorrect tees is the biggest problem. Time after time I see people with no game choose the blue tees, without considering the yardage, slope or rating, because they have it in their head these are the correct tees to play from.

I went along with this mentality for several years until I realized that I can score better, and enjoy the game much more, if I kept the yardage at 6300 or less. I just won't play from tees that are longer than this anymore. It doesn't matter what color they call them: whites, gold, silver, or a combo tee. Sometimes it is the blue tees.

Do my scores go up when I play tougher tracks? Usually but not always. But at least I have a chance to hit GIR's on almost every hole if I'm playing from the correct tees.
[/quote]

Amen brother, I can't count the number of people I've seen this year playing the wrong tees. At one course, a guy that was on his 4th round ever was playing the tips!, Geez give me a break.

I too go for 6300 or less - But I have a couple of major issues:
1) In a number of tournaments due to my handicap I'm forced to 6800-7000 yard tees. Guess what, i can't play those any more effectively. No chance whatsoever. And no choice, play those tees or don't play -- that's my only option; some option
2) At a number of courses, even though I wanted to play a shorter tee, the shorter tees were not USGA rated for me, so I couldn't use the score for handicap purposes and the people I was playing with were insisting that we had to play a "rated" tee set. Again, forced to longer tees forced to use.

I admire the way a number of UK courses manage their courses. A) if you don't have a certain handicap level (provable), you don't play the course. And you play the members tees only. Only special exceptions get to play the back tees. To me this is very reasonable and playable.

I've seen 20 and 30 handicap players try to play Bethpage Black. And of course, even the white are way too difficult so they spend all day looking for balls. And half the time, they play the back tees which makes for an even longer day.
[/quote]


I gotta smile out of your first point. I'm in the same boat. I joined one of those amateur tours and asked what tees I'd be playing from (I'm a senior). The handicap committee chair assured me I'd be playing between 6000 to 6300 depending on the tournament. I asked about my HI. He said, no problem. Okay, fine. I show up to my first tournament and I'm assigned 6900 yards. Wait, what? I shoot 42 on the front, which is pretty darn good considering I'm hitting a fairway wood into every par 4 and into every par 3 (except one, where I had to hit driver). Anyway, we get to the back nine and there is this one hole which requires a tee shot carry of 250 yards. Oh well. Needless to say, it wasn't a fun round of golf.
[/quote]

I suppose they should shorten the courses so you can be competitive.

[Snufles]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355950044' post='6092305']
[size=5]I see people on the course all the time who I think have no business at all being on a course to begin with.[/size] So many people without even the most basic skills. Those folks belong on the practice range, par 3 courses and so forth until they get the basics down. At the very least these folks should be restricted to afternoon play when the course is empty. It's like someone who can't swim a lap in a pool trying to swim the English Channel.
[/quote]

You should go tell the owner of the course to have them removed and let us know how that goes.

[ryancjordan]

How can you have multiple professional golfers say that its so certainly an issue they have no idea why anyone would be debating it. Yet, here we are. Utterly amazing.

[ryancjordan]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355952298' post='6092491']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355950044' post='6092305']
I see people on the course all the time who I think have no business at all being on a course to begin with. So many people without even the most basic skills. Those folks belong on the practice range, par 3 courses and so forth until they get the basics down. At the very least these folks should be restricted to afternoon play when the course is empty. It's like someone who can't swim a lap in a pool trying to swim the English Channel.
[/quote]

Exactly.. When I took up the game over twenty years back, a friend, who had been playing since college, gave me some sage advice. Stay on the range and executive tracks till I had reasonable control over the ball. I can't count the times I've told people that same advice.
[/quote]

You know what we should do? Have some sort of central control center. Pepper can sit at a console with a million screens of people filming golfers around the country. The ones he doesn't think are good enough will be removed. Golf will no doubt have massive economic prosperity with kicking anyone new off the course...and these courses that keep closing down? Well, they can close down a bit earlier once we run all their business off. Problem solved!

[golfdad907]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1355962738' post='6093287']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355952298' post='6092491']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355950044' post='6092305']
I see people on the course all the time who I think have no business at all being on a course to begin with. So many people without even the most basic skills. Those folks belong on the practice range, par 3 courses and so forth until they get the basics down. At the very least these folks should be restricted to afternoon play when the course is empty. It's like someone who can't swim a lap in a pool trying to swim the English Channel.
[/quote]

Exactly.. When I took up the game over twenty years back, a friend, who had been playing since college, gave me some sage advice. Stay on the range and executive tracks till I had reasonable control over the ball. I can't count the times I've told people that same advice.
[/quote]

You know what we should do? Have some sort of central control center. Pepper can sit at a console with a million screens of people filming golfers around the country. The ones he doesn't think are good enough will be removed. Golf will no doubt have massive economic prosperity with kicking anyone new off the course...and these courses that keep closing down? Well, they can close down a bit earlier once we run all their business off. Problem solved!
[/quote]

I have to agree with Pepper and Surf....if you're a beginner don't go to some 73.0/141 track and ruin everyone elses day. Learn how to strike the ball somewhat solidly and at least have some etiquette.

If at a resort that's one thing, vacation golf, but for Crimeny sakes don't be shooting 140, counting every shot, plumb bobbing, marking 18" putts, and generally being a 'mullett'....there I said it, sorry, for those who are beginners, but I didn't take my kids to my home course until they could break 100. The exec tracks and some munies, lower end ones, are where you learn the game, then progress to the better tracks.

I wonder if they would let a second year go kart racer drive Indy cars?

If courses would manage pace of play, as SOME actually do, it would be different, but if a course is just there to collect greens fees and not the overall Customer experience, they should go broke.

I used to work in golf course design and construction, so if right number of tees added and people would realize their ability or lack thereof, would be one thing. There was a course in MN talked about in the trades back in late 90s, they were basically broke, new owners came in, guaranteed less than 4 hour rounds....yes, they would put hackers into proper position twice around, then ask you to leave course, go to range and buy you lunch if had to....in 6 months they were booked solid all day, every day, avg round was like 3:50


A guy who can't drive the ball 150, waiting for green to clear on a 430 par 4 before hitting second shot is inexcusable, IMO. Then multiply that idgit times 4 and have a 5 hour plus round.

[KDMullins]

Hmmm...weird.

[size="2"]Phil Mickelson: "Modern-day architecture is the single-most reason why play & participation in golf has declined. It's too hard.” [url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek"]http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek[/url]

[url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://twitter.com/GolfDigestMag/status/283054406369419264"]http://twitter.com/GolfDigestMag/status/283054406369419264[/url][/size]

[Sean2]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356321121' post='6110325']
Hmmm...weird.

[size=2]Phil Mickelson: "Modern-day architecture is the single-most reason why play & participation in golf has declined. It's too hard.” [url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek"]http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek[/url]

[url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://twitter.com/GolfDigestMag/status/283054406369419264"]http://twitter.com/G...054406369419264[/url][/size]
[/quote]

Interesting quote KD. He pretty much echoes what Luke Donald and others have said. I wonder what the naysayers have to say in response to Phil Mickelson?

[Pepperturbo]

Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).