Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356783721' post='6133161']
There really are two camps on this debate:

On one side you have those who want to blame other people for their shortcomings in life. These are the golf courses are too hard folks. These folks look to blame others rather than look inside themselves. These folks won't blame themselves for not being able to hit the golf ball across a hazard, they blame the designer for putting the hazard there in the first place.

On the other side you have the folks who take on responsibility and challenge head on with a no excuses approach. For these folks it is the game of golf that is difficult. These folks know that the playing field and the person who designed it are not at fault for their play. These folks take what's put in front of them and do the best they can to overcome any challenge in front of them.

It is really a stark difference in personality types. One of the things I love about this game is how it totally exposes everyone's personalities. On the course you can measure someone up almost perfectly in an 18 hole round. This thread is just another example of this.
[/quote]

Uhhh, no. I think that's a different thread or forum or something.

[Snufles]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356783721' post='6133161']
There really are two camps on this debate:

On one side you have those who want to blame other people for their shortcomings in life. These are the golf courses are too hard folks. These folks look to blame others rather than look inside themselves. These folks won't blame themselves for not being able to hit the golf ball across a hazard, they blame the designer for putting the hazard there in the first place.

On the other side you have the folks who take on responsibility and challenge head on with a no excuses approach. For these folks it is the game of golf that is difficult. These folks know that the playing field and the person who designed it are not at fault for their play. These folks take what's put in front of them and do the best they can to overcome any challenge in front of them.

It is really a stark difference in personality types. One of the things I love about this game is how it totally exposes everyone's personalities. On the course you can measure someone up almost perfectly in an 18 hole round. This thread is just another example of this.
[/quote]

I've played with golfers that would empty your pockets on any course 6000 yards and under no mater what the rating/slope. But at 7k+ they have no chance, just because of their length off the tee.

You and pepper equate length with skill and some current designers seem to follow this trend.

[profsmitty]

I too am thinking that there could be a discussion about how assumptions about whether golf is an athletic sport or something else would be an interesting. I have written about this "paradigmatic" difference before so I feel some ownership in the topic. I think it explains a great deal of the differences we see on this thread and other topics. The problem with this is that when a person sees golf with one lens, it is very difficult to understand how anyone can see golf any other way.

If golf is an athletic endeavor, it makes sense to make the challenge as athletically difficult as possible. If golf is a social opportunity, esthetic, spiritual, or an art form (and each of these points of view can be found on GolfWRX at any given time), anything that gets in the way of experiencing golf from that point of view make no sense.

This may be a strange premise but I have seen great threads start from weirder ones.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1356794658' post='6133613']
[b]If golf is an athletic endeavor, it makes sense to make the challenge as athletically difficult as possible.[/b]
[/quote]

Of course golf is an athletic sport. I've heard people attempt to debate that, but for reasons I don't really understand. Just because somebody that's overweight can have some success and/or you don't have to run or jump to play doesn't make it unathletic.

With respect to your point above, why does that make sense? Most sports are played on standard, regulation field/court that never changes at all. I think a golf course should be aesthetically as beautiful as possible, but what's the point of making it as difficult as possible other than to make it an unpleasant experience. A good player SHOULD be able to separate themselves on an easy course just as well as a difficult one. I personally think alot of the reason good players prefer longer, more difficult courses is it because it give them a greater advantage over guys that just can't play...which when you think about it is kind of odd. Hard to chalk it up to anything other than ego.

[duffer987]

[quote]
On one side you have those who want to blame other people for their shortcomings in life. These are the golf courses are too hard folks.
On the other side you have the folks who take on responsibility and challenge head on with a no excuses approach.
[/quote]

SurferDuffer: I really find it hard to believe after weeks worth of posts by all sorts of people, you are still missing the fundamental point of this thread. You have established you have no problems with the designs of one-dimentional golf courses, fair enough, but that the divide is between 'people who blame others' and those 'who take... a challenge head on' is simply untrue.

IMHO I take this thread to be about the difference between the following and the impact it can have on 'average players' involvement in the game:
[b]- course designers and property developers who design and want one-dimensional, penal, 'championship calibre' golf courses[/b]
[b]- designers and developers who want strategic courses with a variety of playing options.[/b]

It has nothing to do with whingers, social assistance collectors, wo-is-me types or whatever else you cannot see beyond. I still believe Sean2 lit the touch paper by using 'unfair' and you cannot see past that, eventhough we have all time and again tried to disuade you from holding onto the preconceived notions you have around that term.

I would like to recommend two great books on the subject, that can do a better job of getting the POV across than I can:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Golf-Architecture-Classics-Alister-MacKenzie/dp/0940889161/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1356801231&sr=8-6&keywords=alister+mackenzie"]Alister Mackenzie's Golf Architecture [/url]- I quoted a few of his design principles in an earlier post
[url="http://www.amazon.com/The-Anatomy-Golf-Course-Architecture/dp/1580800718/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y"]Tom Doak's The Anatomy of a Golf Course[/url] - A contemporary view, continuing on from where Mackenzie left off
If you were to give them a read I would hope it would open you up to the opinions you've read here. Again I don't mean it should change your personal opinion, but hopefully help in understanding what a lot of us are saying
I don't think anyone would accuse either of them of creating courses for whingers who like to give up

[profsmitty]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356799628' post='6133975']

[b]Of course golf is an athletic sport. [/b] I've heard people attempt to debate that, but for reasons I don't really understand. Just because somebody that's overweight can have some success and/or you don't have to run or jump to play doesn't make it unathletic.

With respect to your point above, why does that make sense? Most sports are played on standard, regulation field/court that never changes at all. I think a golf course should be aesthetically as beautiful as possible, but what's the point of making it as difficult as possible other than to make it an unpleasant experience. A good player SHOULD be able to separate themselves on an easy course just as well as a difficult one. I personally think alot of the reason good players prefer longer, more difficult courses is it because it give them a greater advantage over guys that just can't play...which when you think about it is kind of odd. Hard to chalk it up to anything other than ego.
[/quote]
I'm going to break my own rule and use the reply button but only because there is only one post!

You have just demonstrated the point of my post. I know that it is very difficult to understand but for many people, golf is not primarily an athletic sport any more than tai chi is an athletic sport. For some people, golf may have a physical dimension but for them, the physical side of golf isn't all that important. Several fairly recent books, Golf in the Kingdom, Bagger Vance, and Golf's Sacred Journey are some examples of viewing golf as a largely spiritual undertaking.

If we are going to wander down this road, let's not get in the way of exploring the OPs question. This should be done in another thread or two or fifty.

[Sean2]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1356820122' post='6135293']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356799628' post='6133975']
[b]Of course golf is an athletic sport. [/b] I've heard people attempt to debate that, but for reasons I don't really understand. Just because somebody that's overweight can have some success and/or you don't have to run or jump to play doesn't make it unathletic.

With respect to your point above, why does that make sense? Most sports are played on standard, regulation field/court that never changes at all. I think a golf course should be aesthetically as beautiful as possible, but what's the point of making it as difficult as possible other than to make it an unpleasant experience. A good player SHOULD be able to separate themselves on an easy course just as well as a difficult one. I personally think alot of the reason good players prefer longer, more difficult courses is it because it give them a greater advantage over guys that just can't play...which when you think about it is kind of odd. Hard to chalk it up to anything other than ego.
[/quote]
I'm going to break my own rule and use the reply button but only because there is only one post!

You have just demonstrated the point of my post. I know that it is very difficult to understand but for many people, golf is not primarily an athletic sport any more than tai chi is an athletic sport. For some people, golf may have a physical dimension but for them, the physical side of golf isn't all that important. Several fairly recent books, Golf in the Kingdom, Bagger Vance, and Golf's Sacred Journey are some examples of viewing golf as a largely spiritual undertaking.

If we are going to wander down this road, let's not get in the way of exploring the OPs question. This should be done in another thread or two or fifty.
[/quote]

That would make for a very interesting discussion.

[mdgboxx]

I was once a competing Karate black belt. At that time, I was also into target shooting (.357 Mag) and after a comp. I left the shooting range completely drained as opposed to a Karate comp. I would be tired, but not drained. I have a gun, I aim and I shoot wanting to hit a target the size of a dime at 60 ft, yet, I'm drained. I've been with friends, making a lot of money as bar room Pool Sharks, drained after 15-20 games of husling peolple out of their paychecks.

I have walked off the 18th hole of certain courses drained although, I wasn't mountain climbing or trail biking. That's the part that confuses me in this thread. I don't know (or care) if it's my spontanious or my practical side but, if I enjoy your company, I'll go play anywhere. The practical side being: You're the excuse I was looking for to play a course where I wouldn't have gone alone. From hearsay/reputation, I'll bring ½ to 2+ doz balls, just in case. I'll probably hit shots that I didn't even know I could and, I'll leave the course [u]drained[/u] but [u]happier[/u] than a child in a Toys "R" Us.

We can all agree to disagree but, I'm still not convinced that "as a general rule" today's Golf Courses are [u]unfair[/u] to the average player and, at 12 hdcp, I consider myself average.....no better!

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356799628' post='6133975']
[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1356794658' post='6133613']
[b]If golf is an athletic endeavor, it makes sense to make the challenge as athletically difficult as possible.[/b]
[/quote]

Of course golf is an athletic sport. I've heard people attempt to debate that, but for reasons I don't really understand. Just because somebody that's overweight can have some success and/or you don't have to run or jump to play doesn't make it unathletic.

With respect to your point above, why does that make sense? Most sports are played on standard, regulation field/court that never changes at all. I think a golf course should be aesthetically as beautiful as possible, but what's the point of making it as difficult as possible other than to make it an unpleasant experience. A good player SHOULD be able to separate themselves on an easy course just as well as a difficult one. I personally think alot of the reason good players prefer longer, more difficult courses is it because it give them a greater advantage over guys that just can't play...which when you think about it is kind of odd. Hard to chalk it up to anything other than ego.
[/quote]

A very good observation. I am convinced that better players judge the difficulty of a course not by how much it challenges themselves, but how much it punishes the lesser player.

As an example: Pepperturbo continues to make note of the high [i][b]slope[/b][/i] ratings of courses he prefers to play, a rating that better players such as himself should have no concern for as it is a measure of difficulty for the bogey golfer.

Your point about golf having a non-standard field of play (other than the size of the hole) is quite relative to the discussion. Because of this fact, there is a balance in golf that has to be achieved. There is nothing to prevent developers or architects from from building golf courses that are ever increasingly difficult to play to the point of being virtually impossible to play for even skilled golfers. The issue is quality. I maintain that difficulty is not related to quality and it takes no particular amount of skill or insight to design a difficult golf course. A quality golf course can challenge the better player yet remain fun to play for the average golfer.

[SurfDuffer]

Simple question: Is Augusta National unfair or too difficult for the average golfer? How about Pebble Beach Golf Links? Torrey Pines??? Here are three very old courses......not modern by any means. These are among the courses all other American courses are measured by. Somehow people once got around them just fine with blade irons and tiny persimmon drivers. So is it that the courses have changed or the golfers have become soft?

[LTaylor59]

I agree 100% with the OP.

As a +1 capper that plays weekly rounds with his dad and buddies (best of which would hover around an 18 cap and go up to about a 25ish playing some of these AVG friendly courses that we play from the whites can sneak up on you. When you're used to playing driver off every tee other than par 3's which most times require a 5 iron or better and you step up to a tee that is a par 4 playing to 275 yards and you carry your driver 290-300 you're now pulling 3 wood to hit from the tee which has become unheard of on the longer courses unless it's a super tight course that really requires hitting landing areas.

One of the courses that is friendly to AVG golfers in my area happens to be the course that got my money for membership in 2012 and 13 as I can head out and walk on the course with out waiting almost any day of the week. The set up of the course is great for practicing as there is a group of 3 par 5's fairly close to one another as well as 3 par 3's pretty close together and a wide variety of par 4's scattered. There have been days that I have gone out while my wife is at work at 8 or 9 am and played only par 3's until 230 or 3. Same goes with the par 5's, it seems that I really only play a full round about once or twice a week but am out there either on the range, hitting on the practice green (which they were nice enough to put a fairway cut all the way out to 125 yrds for me) working out of the trap or standing on the putting green 3-5 times a week.

This is a course my dad plays for his league and can 100% enjoy himself on and be pleased to not post a GIANT number, however that doesn't mean we dont venture out to tougher courses but this course truly has something to offer every golfer as I have played at this course with tournament buddies that are 0 to +1 players as well and like I said just cause the slope isn't huge doesn't mean it can't sneak up on you. Yes the par 5's are easy to reach in 2 (a lot of times I have about a 7 iron into the greens) but if you get that concerned about that mark out the 5's on the card and write 4's and alter the total from 72 to 69.

It's golf have fun and enjoy your time, you should never walk off the course thinking "why the hell did I even put my bag in my car today". This is just my 2 cents though as I enjoy playing with the AVG cap golfer and love the questions I hear. I get the question "how do you hit it straight so often?" and "how come your ball stops and mine doesn't?". I've even explained my outlook on courses being that "every golf hole is straight, sometimes you just have stuff in the middle to mess with" to a buddy of my dads which really seems to click for him.

LT59

[avrag]

It's always two design elements, which make a golf course unfair, or at least unenjoyable for higher handicaps: forced carries and the lack of bail-out areas. Some of the "modern" designs use both features excessively.
In general, if a hole is designed in a way that makes it possible to reach the green in two shots more than regulation even if you hit a bad shot in between, even a high handicap player has a chance to make bogey (net par, or even net birdie) and enjoy it. If a hole can only be played one way, which means a carry of, let's say more than 160 yards on either the first or the second shot, with no way to go around trouble, it will be a long day for the bogey golfer.
The worst are the holes, on which "teeing forward" won't help you one bit. I mean this sort of 460 yard par 4: The fairway for the tee shot ends in a lake at about 310 yards from the back tees, and, let's say 250 from the "regular" men's tees. Both the expert and the 18 hcp will hit either driver or 3wodd short of the water. Next you have a slither of fairway down the left of the water, which only starts about 50 yards from the green, with the green on a peninsula sticking out into the lake from the left.. The expert player is now faced with a 150 to 170 yards shot to the green, driectly over the lake, which won't malke him sweat much, because he uses 7-iron to 9-iron for it. The 18 hcp player, if in his right mind, won't even try that shot (maybe as much as a hybrid fro him), but he still has to hit to that tablecloth of a fairway short and left of the green, 130 yards away, with no other way to go. Two balls in the water later, he'll pick up (hopefully for the ones behind him) and will be unhappy, that he was not able to finish the hole.
If there were areal fairway to hit to, to lay up with the second shot, this would not be a problem, and the hole would play exactly the same for the scratch player, because he would not even bother to look there.
The old philosophy of "easy bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie" has been lost somewhat. Now you often have "easy double or worse, next to impossible bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie."

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356869775' post='6137975']
Simple question: Is Augusta National unfair or too difficult for the average golfer? How about Pebble Beach Golf Links? Torrey Pines??? Here are three very old courses......not modern by any means. These are among the courses all other American courses are measured by. Somehow people once got around them just fine with blade irons and tiny persimmon drivers. So is it that the courses have changed or the golfers have become soft?
[/quote]

No. You've picked some good ones there that are generally considered playable by all handicap levels. If only newer courses were similarly designed.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1356873535' post='6138049']
It's always two design elements, which make a golf course unfair, or at least unenjoyable for higher handicaps: forced carries and the lack of bail-out areas. Some of the "modern" designs use both features excessively.
In general, if a hole is designed in a way that makes it possible to reach the green in two shots more than regulation even if you hit a bad shot in between, even a high handicap player has a chance to make bogey (net par, or even net birdie) and enjoy it. If a hole can only be played one way, which means a carry of, let's say more than 160 yards on either the first or the second shot, with no way to go around trouble, it will be a long day for the bogey golfer.
The worst are the holes, on which "teeing forward" won't help you one bit. I mean this sort of 460 yard par 4: The fairway for the tee shot ends in a lake at about 310 yards from the back tees, and, let's say 250 from the "regular" men's tees. Both the expert and the 18 hcp will hit either driver or 3wodd short of the water. Next you have a slither of fairway down the left of the water, which only starts about 50 yards from the green, with the green on a peninsula sticking out into the lake from the left.. The expert player is now faced with a 150 to 170 yards shot to the green, driectly over the lake, which won't malke him sweat much, because he uses 7-iron to 9-iron for it. The 18 hcp player, if in his right mind, won't even try that shot (maybe as much as a hybrid fro him), but he still has to hit to that tablecloth of a fairway short and left of the green, 130 yards away, with no other way to go. Two balls in the water later, he'll pick up (hopefully for the ones behind him) and will be unhappy, that he was not able to finish the hole.
If there were areal fairway to hit to, to lay up with the second shot, this would not be a problem, and the hole would play exactly the same for the scratch player, because he would not even bother to look there.
The old philosophy of "easy bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie" has been lost somewhat. Now you often have "easy double or worse, next to impossible bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie."
[/quote]

Some people confuse degree of difficulty with degree of playability. Courses can be difficult, yet playable for the bogey golfer, like the ones SurfDuffer threw out a couple of posts back. A lot of newer courses are difficult and simply not playable for the bogey golfer.

I don't think anybody wants a bunch of easy, bland courses. To suggest otherwise is simply creating a strawman so some posters in this thread have somebody to argue with.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356878205' post='6138237']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356869775' post='6137975']
Simple question: Is Augusta National unfair or too difficult for the average golfer? How about Pebble Beach Golf Links? Torrey Pines??? Here are three very old courses......not modern by any means. These are among the courses all other American courses are measured by. Somehow people once got around them just fine with blade irons and tiny persimmon drivers. So is it that the courses have changed or the golfers have become soft?
[/quote]

No. You've picked some good ones there that are generally considered playable by all handicap levels. If only newer courses were similarly designed.
[/quote]

Yeah RIGHT!!!???. Do you have any idea how many balls the "average" golfer would lose on these three courses? You don't dare answer my previous post any other way though because it blows the entire premise of this thread out of the water.

Visit Pebble Beach's hole by hole site and imagine the "average" golfers spoke of in this thread:
http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/pebble-beach-golf-links/hole-by-hole-course-tour

How many balls does your average golfer lose on holes 4-10 and 17-18? Then look at the bunkering on the rest of the course. I dare say this course would leave the modern "average" golfer in tears.

[deadsolid...shank]

I can't say anything about Torrey or Augusta, but after playing Pebble last year, I think it is very playable for the average golfer. We had an older gentleman play with us. I would guess at best he might have been a 20 hcp, probably didn't hit the ball 200 yards. He played the white tees and really had no major problems. A shorter hitter can certainly move the ball around Pebble, it appeared to me to have ample room to avoid the hazards.

After playing both Pebble and The Dunes course at the Prairie Club last year, I can say that the Dunes (a new course) is much more difficult for the average golfer than Pebble. There are bunkers at the Prairie Club that feel like you might never get out of them.

[ABgolfer2]

Playable as in getting around the course (eventually - like fitting in all 18 holes during daylight hours) without having a nervous breakdown or playable in the sense of being an enjoyable round played in a reasonable amount of time?

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356883128' post='6138601']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356878205' post='6138237']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356869775' post='6137975']
Simple question: Is Augusta National unfair or too difficult for the average golfer? How about Pebble Beach Golf Links? Torrey Pines??? Here are three very old courses......not modern by any means. These are among the courses all other American courses are measured by. Somehow people once got around them just fine with blade irons and tiny persimmon drivers. So is it that the courses have changed or the golfers have become soft?
[/quote]

No. You've picked some good ones there that are generally considered playable by all handicap levels. If only newer courses were similarly designed.
[/quote]

Yeah RIGHT!!!???. Do you have any idea how many balls the "average" golfer would lose on these three courses? You don't dare answer my previous post any other way though because it blows the entire premise of this thread out of the water.

Visit Pebble Beach's hole by hole site and imagine the "average" golfers spoke of in this thread:
[url="http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/pebble-beach-golf-links/hole-by-hole-course-tour"]http://www.pebblebea...ole-course-tour[/url]

How many balls does your average golfer lose on holes 4-10 and 17-18? Then look at the bunkering on the rest of the course. I dare say this course would leave the modern "average" golfer in tears.
[/quote]

To the contrary, the fact that you listed these 3 courses exhibits your continued misunderstanding of this entire thread. Pebble is not a difficult golf course under normal weather and non-US Open playing conditions. Have you ever been there, played it or know somebody that has?

I've not been to Torrey, but I have been to both Pebble and Augusta, and they're perfect examples of the opposite of the argument you are making in this thread.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356893175' post='6139411']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356883128' post='6138601']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356878205' post='6138237']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356869775' post='6137975']
Simple question: Is Augusta National unfair or too difficult for the average golfer? How about Pebble Beach Golf Links? Torrey Pines??? Here are three very old courses......not modern by any means. These are among the courses all other American courses are measured by. Somehow people once got around them just fine with blade irons and tiny persimmon drivers. So is it that the courses have changed or the golfers have become soft?
[/quote]

No. You've picked some good ones there that are generally considered playable by all handicap levels. If only newer courses were similarly designed.
[/quote]

Yeah RIGHT!!!???. Do you have any idea how many balls the "average" golfer would lose on these three courses? You don't dare answer my previous post any other way though because it blows the entire premise of this thread out of the water.

Visit Pebble Beach's hole by hole site and imagine the "average" golfers spoke of in this thread:
[url="http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/pebble-beach-golf-links/hole-by-hole-course-tour"]http://www.pebblebea...ole-course-tour[/url]

How many balls does your average golfer lose on holes 4-10 and 17-18? Then look at the bunkering on the rest of the course. I dare say this course would leave the modern "average" golfer in tears.
[/quote]

To the contrary, the fact that you listed these 3 courses exhibits your continued misunderstanding of this entire thread. Pebble is not a difficult golf course under normal weather and non-US Open playing conditions. Have you ever been there, played it or know somebody that has?

I've not been to Torrey, but I have been to both Pebble and Augusta, and they're perfect examples of the opposite of the argument you are making in this thread.
[/quote]

If these courses aren't difficult where then pray tell are all these super difficult "modern" golf courses you guys claim exist everywhere and why isn't the PGA tour playing them???? Perhaps its you who is missing my point.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='sean_miller' timestamp='1356890598' post='6139189']
Playable as in getting around the course (eventually - like fitting in all 18 holes during daylight hours) without having a nervous breakdown or playable in the sense of being an enjoyable round played in a reasonable amount of time?
[/quote]

Sean, I don't know if you we're addressing my post or not, but the older gentleman seemed to have a very enjoyable day, I would have guessed him to have been somewhere in the mid 90's score wise, and being the first group out we were comfortably around in about three and a half hours (with ample picture time).

[Sean2]

[quote name='LTaylor59' timestamp='1356872725' post='6138021']
I agree 100% with the OP.

As a +1 capper that plays weekly rounds with his dad and buddies (best of which would hover around an 18 cap and go up to about a 25ish playing some of these AVG friendly courses that we play from the whites can sneak up on you. When you're used to playing driver off every tee other than par 3's which most times require a 5 iron or better and you step up to a tee that is a par 4 playing to 275 yards and you carry your driver 290-300 you're now pulling 3 wood to hit from the tee which has become unheard of on the longer courses unless it's a super tight course that really requires hitting landing areas.

One of the courses that is friendly to AVG golfers in my area happens to be the course that got my money for membership in 2012 and 13 as I can head out and walk on the course with out waiting almost any day of the week. The set up of the course is great for practicing as there is a group of 3 par 5's fairly close to one another as well as 3 par 3's pretty close together and a wide variety of par 4's scattered. There have been days that I have gone out while my wife is at work at 8 or 9 am and played only par 3's until 230 or 3. Same goes with the par 5's, it seems that I really only play a full round about once or twice a week but am out there either on the range, hitting on the practice green (which they were nice enough to put a fairway cut all the way out to 125 yrds for me) working out of the trap or standing on the putting green 3-5 times a week.

This is a course my dad plays for his league and can 100% enjoy himself on and be pleased to not post a GIANT number, however that doesn't mean we dont venture out to tougher courses but this course truly has something to offer every golfer as I have played at this course with tournament buddies that are 0 to +1 players as well and like I said just cause the slope isn't huge doesn't mean it can't sneak up on you. Yes the par 5's are easy to reach in 2 (a lot of times I have about a 7 iron into the greens) but if you get that concerned about that mark out the 5's on the card and write 4's and alter the total from 72 to 69.

[b]It's golf have fun and enjoy your time, you should never walk off the course thinking "why the hell did I even put my bag in my car today".[/b] This is just my 2 cents though as I enjoy playing with the AVG cap golfer and love the questions I hear. I get the question "how do you hit it straight so often?" and "how come your ball stops and mine doesn't?". I've even explained my outlook on courses being that "every golf hole is straight, sometimes you just have stuff in the middle to mess with" to a buddy of my dads which really seems to click for him.

LT59
[/quote]

And that's the point, isn't it? To have fun? :-)

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1356901229' post='6139959']
[quote name='sean_miller' timestamp='1356890598' post='6139189']
Playable as in getting around the course (eventually - like fitting in all 18 holes during daylight hours) without having a nervous breakdown or playable in the sense of being an enjoyable round played in a reasonable amount of time?
[/quote]

Sean, I don't know if you we're addressing my post or not, but the older gentleman seemed to have a very enjoyable day, I would have guessed him to have been somewhere in the mid 90's score wise, and being the first group out we were comfortably around in about three and a half hours (with ample picture time).
[/quote]

I guess I was and that certainly sounds playable to me.

[Sean2]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1356873535' post='6138049']
It's always two design elements, which make a golf course unfair, or at least unenjoyable for higher handicaps: forced carries and the lack of bail-out areas. Some of the "modern" designs use both features excessively.
In general, if a hole is designed in a way that makes it possible to reach the green in two shots more than regulation even if you hit a bad shot in between, even a high handicap player has a chance to make bogey (net par, or even net birdie) and enjoy it. If a hole can only be played one way, which means a carry of, let's say more than 160 yards on either the first or the second shot, with no way to go around trouble, it will be a long day for the bogey golfer.
The worst are the holes, on which "teeing forward" won't help you one bit. I mean this sort of 460 yard par 4: The fairway for the tee shot ends in a lake at about 310 yards from the back tees, and, let's say 250 from the "regular" men's tees. Both the expert and the 18 hcp will hit either driver or 3wodd short of the water. Next you have a slither of fairway down the left of the water, which only starts about 50 yards from the green, with the green on a peninsula sticking out into the lake from the left.. The expert player is now faced with a 150 to 170 yards shot to the green, driectly over the lake, which won't malke him sweat much, because he uses 7-iron to 9-iron for it. The 18 hcp player, if in his right mind, won't even try that shot (maybe as much as a hybrid fro him), but he still has to hit to that tablecloth of a fairway short and left of the green, 130 yards away, with no other way to go. Two balls in the water later, he'll pick up (hopefully for the ones behind him) and will be unhappy, that he was not able to finish the hole.
If there were areal fairway to hit to, to lay up with the second shot, this would not be a problem, and the hole would play exactly the same for the scratch player, because he would not even bother to look there.
The old philosophy of "easy bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie" has been lost somewhat. Now you often have "easy double or worse, next to impossible bogey, difficult par, very difficult birdie."
[/quote]

Exactly. And a lot of the old designers, Donald Ross for instance, made his courses playable for both kinds of players, with plenty of room for the average golfer to bail out and not be faced with an untenable choice, yet present enough of a challenge for the scratch golfer.

There are those that like to whine and complain that the average golfer (who some refer to as "golfers who suck"), don't work hard enough, or don't have the intestinal fortitude, or whatever, simply don't understand the nature of the average golfer. I've tried to explain it, as have others, but they prefer to see the average golfer struggle. Phil Mickelson, Luke Donald, the PGA of America, Barney Adams, other designers opinions don't matter either. These whiners and complainers want to see the average golfer suffer. I suppose it's a "Scrooge" mentality.

Golf is game for everyone, not just those who seem to think it's only for those who can hit it 300 yards off the tee and carry 180 yard hazards with their 8-irons.

[SurfDuffer]

The internet is full of info on just about every course on the planet including photos and hole diagrams. Here is a challenge: Please start a list for me of these unfair modern courses. I honestly don't think they exist. Our only example so far was a picture of a fairly average and relatively easy par 3.

[pingman1]

[quote name='LTaylor59' timestamp='1356872725' post='6138021']
I agree 100% with the OP.

As a +1 capper that plays weekly rounds with his dad and buddies (best of which would hover around an 18 cap and go up to about a 25ish playing some of these AVG friendly courses that we play from the whites can sneak up on you. When you're used to playing driver off every tee other than par 3's which most times require a 5 iron or better and you step up to a tee that is a par 4 playing to 275 yards and you carry your driver 290-300 you're now pulling 3 wood to hit from the tee which has become unheard of on the longer courses unless it's a super tight course that really requires hitting landing areas.

One of the courses that is friendly to AVG golfers in my area happens to be the course that got my money for membership in 2012 and 13 as I can head out and walk on the course with out waiting almost any day of the week. The set up of the course is great for practicing as there is a group of 3 par 5's fairly close to one another as well as 3 par 3's pretty close together and a wide variety of par 4's scattered. There have been days that I have gone out while my wife is at work at 8 or 9 am and played only par 3's until 230 or 3. Same goes with the par 5's, it seems that I really only play a full round about once or twice a week but am out there either on the range, hitting on the practice green (which they were nice enough to put a fairway cut all the way out to 125 yrds for me) working out of the trap or standing on the putting green 3-5 times a week.

This is a course my dad plays for his league and can 100% enjoy himself on and be pleased to not post a GIANT number, however that doesn't mean we dont venture out to tougher courses but this course truly has something to offer every golfer as I have played at this course with tournament buddies that are 0 to +1 players as well and like I said just cause the slope isn't huge doesn't mean it can't sneak up on you. Yes the par 5's are easy to reach in 2 (a lot of times I have about a 7 iron into the greens) but if you get that concerned about that mark out the 5's on the card and write 4's and alter the total from 72 to 69.

It's golf have fun and enjoy your time, you should never walk off the course thinking "why the hell did I even put my bag in my car today". This is just my 2 cents though as I enjoy playing with the AVG cap golfer and love the questions I hear. I get the question "how do you hit it straight so often?" and "how come your ball stops and mine doesn't?". I've even explained my outlook on courses being that "every golf hole is straight, sometimes you just have stuff in the middle to mess with" to a buddy of my dads which really seems to click for him.

LT59
[/quote]

This is absolutely the best post. How lucky your are to be able to play with your Dad and friends and really enjoy the game. However, I think you would enjoy the game on any course you play. It would be a pleasure to play a round of golf with you.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='pingman1' timestamp='1356906409' post='6140331']

This is absolutely the best post. How lucky your are to be able to play with your Dad and friends and really enjoy the game. However, [u][b] I think you would enjoy the game on any course you play. [/b][/u] It would be a pleasure to play a round of golf with you.
[/quote]

I underlined and highlighted the key sentence in the previous post. Still trying to figure out where these unfair modern courses are. Help me out guys.

[Snufles]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356909396' post='6140543']
[quote name='pingman1' timestamp='1356906409' post='6140331']
This is absolutely the best post. How lucky your are to be able to play with your Dad and friends and really enjoy the game. However, [u][b] I think you would enjoy the game on any course you play. [/b][/u] It would be a pleasure to play a round of golf with you.
[/quote]

I underlined and highlighted the key sentence in the previous post. Still trying to figure out where these unfair modern courses are. Help me out guys.
[/quote]

Is there really any point for anyone to list any? You will still not get it no matter what anyone suggests.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356899867' post='6139867']
If these courses aren't difficult where then pray tell are all these super difficult "modern" golf courses you guys claim exist everywhere and why isn't the PGA tour playing them???? Perhaps its you who is missing my point.
[/quote]

Almost any "Championship" course that's been built since TPC Sawgrass is where I'd start.

[Conrad1953]

Funny how many difficult/penal courses attract fame
and long lists of average golfers waiting weeks and
even months for a tee time.

Where I live and where there are no waiting lists,
RTJ Capitol Hill, average golfers are not scared
away by the difficulty of the courses, they come
because of it; testosterone driven. And few keep
an honest score and stories of glory abound.

"Prepare to be judged" says the opening sign at the
1st hole on the Judge course. Average golfers
pose for pics at that sign.

Maybe it's the southern egos but around here
rounds decrease only when money is tight or
the weather is bad.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote][color=#282828]Funny how many difficult/penal courses attract fame[/color]
[color=#282828]and long lists of average golfers waiting weeks and[/color]
[color=#282828]even months for a tee time.[/color]

[color=#282828]Where I live and where there are no waiting lists,[/color]
[color=#282828]RTJ Capitol Hill, average golfers are not scared[/color]
[color=#282828]away by the difficulty of the courses, they come[/color]
[color=#282828]because of it; testosterone driven. And few keep[/color]
[color=#282828]an honest score and stories of glory abound.[/color]

[color=#282828]"Prepare to be judged" says the opening sign at the[/color]
[color=#282828]1st hole on the Judge course. Average golfers[/color]
[color=#282828]pose for pics at that sign.[/color]

[color=#282828]Maybe it's the southern egos but around here[/color]
[color=#282828]rounds decrease only when money is tight or[/color]
[color=#282828]the weather is bad.[/color][/quote]


Perhaps there just aren't as many whiners there as there appear to be in the rest of the country.