Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356904901' post='6140243']
The internet is full of info on just about every course on the planet including photos and hole diagrams. Here is a challenge: Please start a list for me of these unfair modern courses. I honestly don't think they exist. Our only example so far was a picture of a fairly average and relatively easy par 3.
[/quote]

You're probably right. The aforementioned PGA players, governing bodies and golf publications that have addressed this issue probably just don't know what they're talking about.

[Myherobobhope]

I think good designers manage to still build good courses.

I've played a number of Fazio courses, and they all have "options" for the higher handicap players. Both in terms of tee boxes and escapes.

You can easily get yourself into trouble, but it requires bad planning.

I think the problem with newer golf courses is people go for "epic" when they should go for timeless.

[KDMullins]

Assuming you're talking about Tom, I agree. While his courses are sometimes visually intimidating, they are typically very playable for all golfers.

I also agree on your observation about new course design. It seems a lot of designers - either on their own or at the request of whoever is financing the build - want to take every cool thing - including hazards - they've every seen and put them all on the same golf course. What you wind up with is what we have now. Too many golf courses that cannot be played in a reasonable amount of strokes and/or time.

[tnord]

i'm not expert, but i can play a little bit....and certainly spent time as an average or worse player. i see a couple fundamental issues in no particular order.

1) equipment improvements have created a LARGER gap between the good player and the average/worse player. good players hit the ball farther and straighter than ever before. bad players still hit it sideways and 200yds. good players can spin the ball from about any lie with the modern ball....bad players hit the chunk and run fom everywhere.
2) courses that are visually impressive are less playable for average/worse players. color contrast in terms of bunkers and water, tree lined holes, and narrow fairways give a hole shape, form, and are visually stunning. those are also the holes that produce double digit scores.
3) land developers/home builders want "championship caliber" courses so they can put more expensive houses on them, and charge more for membership/green fees. "championship caliber" means difficult for the sub 5 handicap player, which means 7000+ yards, full of hazards, fast & highly contoured greens, etc.
4) championship caliber, visually impressive courses sell houses, which is what was driving course development and design for the last 20 or so years.

obviously there is much detail behind each point that can be debating, but those are the basics as i see them.

[SurfDuffer]

Come on.....how about a few examples of unfair courses. Help me out here........[i][size=2]If you can[/size].[/i]

[KDMullins]

Okay, Surf. I played a course out in California one of the last few times I was out there. Robinson Ranch, Valley Course.

If we did an experiment:

1. 5 foursomes (20 players total)
2. First time playing the course
3. GHIN index between 15-16
4. Each player gets a dozen balls
5. USGA Rules of Golf strictly enforced
6. Blue tees (one up from back)

My bet is 8-10 players would run out of balls, 4 would break 100, and no group would finish in under 4 hours, 45 minutes.

[Desert Golf]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357044001' post='6147321']
Come on.....how about a few examples of unfair courses. Help me out here........[i][size=2]If you can[/size].[/i]
[/quote]

I'll give it a shot. TPC Stadium Course in La Quinta. I've never played it, but only because it's always packed and the rates are too high. Maybe I'll give it go this summer.

Here are a few excerpts from an article I found:

When [url="http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/pete-dye.html"]Pete Dye[/url] designed the [url="http://www.golfguideweb.com/california/laquinta/beffb.html"]PGA West TPC Stadium Golf Course[/url] in 1985 he was told to create the most difficult golf course in the world

Nine of the holes have water very much in play, there are 200-yard forced carries from the back tees and almost every hole displays Dye's difficult bunkering.

Phil Mickelson played the course in November and didn't like it -- too tough.

The course has been home for the Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf in 1995-1996, the Skins Game in 1986 through 1991, Bob Hope Chrysler Classic 1987 and has been a PGA Grand Slam of Golf site. So why all these former events? Probably because it is tough. Tour players complained so loud and so long after the 1987 [url="http://www.travelgolf.com/departments/ontour/bob-hope-tour.htm"]Bob Hope Chrysler Classic[/url] that its one-year run ended very abruptly.

[i]Golf Traveler[/i] named it as the second most challenging course in America. Most everyone ranks it at least in the top five for toughness.

So, even though the pros think it's too difficult, the amateurs keep coming by the thousands to test the TPC Stadium Course, even paying as much at $235 for 18 holes (fees vary throughout the year).

The slope/rating from the blue tees are 73.3/142 (6700 yds), from the tips 76.1/150 (7300yds)

Here is another excerpt from Golf Digest which ranks it #4 in difficulty:

[b][color="#990000"]4. PGA WEST (STADIUM COURSE)[/color]
LA QUINTA / CALIF. / 7,266 YARDS / PAR 72 [/b]
Using moguls, pot bunkers and lumpy lies--a style he called his "grenade-attack look"--Pete Dye designed the Stadium Course to play mind games with the world's best players, and he won. In the late 1980s, PGA Tour players successfully petitioned for its removal from the Bob Hope Desert Chrysler Classic because it was too hard for them, the sissies. Relegated for years mostly as a video-game monster, PGA West has re-emerged as a Q school final exam for aspiring tour pros. With holes like the island-green 17th called Alcatraz, it's no wonder the late Jim Murray summed up PGA West with these words: "You need a camel, a canoe, a priest and a tourniquet to get through it."

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1357058865' post='6148107']
Okay, Surf. I played a course out in California one of the last few times I was out there. Robinson Ranch, Valley Course.

If we did an experiment:

1. 5 foursomes (20 players total)
2. First time playing the course
3. GHIN index between 15-16
4. Each player gets a dozen balls
5. USGA Rules of Golf strictly enforced
6. Blue tees (one up from back)

My bet is 8-10 players would run out of balls, 4 would break 100, and no group would finish in under 4 hours, 45 minutes.
[/quote]

OK. I looked it up. Looks like a nice course. Looked at lots of pictures and that course looks like a blast!!!!! What's the problem? If someone has basic skills and is playing the proper tees they should have no problem having fun here. A few pictures made it clear that the person who is playing the wrong tees and who can't get it airborn or can't hit it reasonably towards their target is going to lose balls. Move up to the right tees for your ability. Can you explain to my why 15 and 16 indexes would be playing the next to the most difficult tees here??? Why not the whites or golds? What should the expectations be of a 15 or 16 handicap playing the tees that play to a 141 slope rating??? Seriously.......you can blame the course all you want but if someone's ego ego drags you back to tees where they don't belong how can I have sympathy for them??? You are blaming the course for people's lack of skill and over inflated egos.

Should golf courses be built or adjusted so that golfers that stink at the game can play from the back tees so they don't feel like they stink so badly??? That seems to be what some would like. Their egos are bigger than their golf game so rather than play the tees they belong on we should make the courses easier. Silly.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357067454' post='6148921']

I'll give it a shot. TPC Stadium Course in La Quinta. [u]I've never played it, but only because it's always packed and the rates are too high.[/u] Maybe I'll give it go this summer.


[/quote]

Thanks for trying but I didn't have to read any more beyond what I underlined. The course is packed and is drawing top dollar. How could you claim its a bad design, too difficult or unfair. If those things were true this would be the first course in the area to lose business. Keep trying.

[Desert Golf]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357087436' post='6150601']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357067454' post='6148921']
I'll give it a shot. TPC Stadium Course in La Quinta. [u]I've never played it, but only because it's always packed and the rates are too high.[/u] Maybe I'll give it go this summer.


[/quote]

Thanks for trying but I didn't have to read any more beyond what I underlined. The course is packed and is drawing top dollar. How could you claim its a bad design, too difficult or unfair. If those things were true this would be the first course in the area to lose business. Keep trying.
[/quote]

I think most people play TPC Stadium because of the challenge. My point is that if PGA pro's believe it is too difficult for them, it is also too difficult for the "average golfer".

Obviously this course is doing well, mostly because it is notoriously difficult. I personally don't think we should make courses easier, just giving an example of a very difficult course in my area.

[avrag]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357087240' post='6150585']
Can you explain to my why 15 and 16 indexes would be playing the next to the most difficult tees here??? Why not the whites or golds? What should the expectations be of a 15 or 16 handicap playing the tees that play to a 141 slope rating??? Seriously.......you can blame the course all you want but if someone's ego ego drags you back to tees where they don't belong how can I have sympathy for them???
[/quote]

The problem with your thinking as with the whole "tee it forward" philosophy when driven to the extreme is this:
There are players whose HI is in the mid-teens, who actually drive the ball pretty well, thanks to today's technology, and who hit the ball almost as long as the "short" tour players. When you have these players play from tees which make the course play to under 6.000 yards, they do not play the course the way it was meant to be played, because the hazards which should be in play off the tee, aren't any more. Yet, it does not really change the difficulty of the course in the department they really struggle with.
A tee shot on a par 4 or par 5 with a carry of 200 yards makes me sweat way less than an approach shot of 150 yards or less with no bail-out area around the green.
So, if the "Do-or-die" shots are those towards the greens, "playing the correct tees" will change nothing.

[Imp]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357092757' post='6151065']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357087436' post='6150601']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357067454' post='6148921']
I'll give it a shot. TPC Stadium Course in La Quinta. [u]I've never played it, but only because it's always packed and the rates are too high.[/u] Maybe I'll give it go this summer.


[/quote]

Thanks for trying but I didn't have to read any more beyond what I underlined. The course is packed and is drawing top dollar. How could you claim its a bad design, too difficult or unfair. If those things were true this would be the first course in the area to lose business. Keep trying.
[/quote]

I think most people play TPC Stadium because of the challenge. My point is that if PGA pro's believe it is too difficult for them, it is also too difficult for the "average golfer".

Obviously this course is doing well, mostly because it is notoriously difficult. I personally don't think we should make courses easier, just giving an example of a very difficult course in my area.
[/quote]Agreed. If you go to oobgolf.com and look at what people have scored there for the Stadium, of the 33 rounds reported to oobgolf last year from people that belong there, you will see that one person shot 78, 6 in the 80s, 15 in the 90s and rest 100+.

I know, not everyone records their scores there, but I have found it one of the better available data one has to see what average joes would shoot on a course before going. I just pull up the course, and see what the scores are. It's not perfect, but it shows what people shot, and then their net (according to oobgolf)... and when a majority of the net scores are decently over par, I know it's not going to be an easy course.

The stadium course, to me, just using this subset of data, looks really, really hard compared to many other courses.

--kC

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1356793861' post='6133551']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1356783721' post='6133161']
There really are two camps on this debate:

On one side you have those who want to blame other people for their shortcomings in life. These are the golf courses are too hard folks. These folks look to blame others rather than look inside themselves. These folks won't blame themselves for not being able to hit the golf ball across a hazard, they blame the designer for putting the hazard there in the first place.

On the other side you have the folks who take on responsibility and challenge head on with a no excuses approach. For these folks it is the game of golf that is difficult. These folks know that the playing field and the person who designed it are not at fault for their play. These folks take what's put in front of them and do the best they can to overcome any challenge in front of them.

It is really a stark difference in personality types. One of the things I love about this game is how it totally exposes everyone's personalities. On the course you can measure someone up almost perfectly in an 18 hole round. This thread is just another example of this.
[/quote]

I've played with golfers that would empty your pockets on any course 6000 yards and under no mater what the rating/slope. But at 7k+ they have no chance, just because of their length off the tee.

You and pepper equate length with skill and some current designers seem to follow this trend.
[/quote]

You are wrong, least regarding my thoughts on the subject. I've played plenty of short difficult courses that require target golf and love them. Length is one thing, average Joe using club loft to get the ball in the air is another, which is conveniently overlooked. Even with all the new SGI technology, he struggles because he doesn't care to, or have the time or money or physical ability to improve. I don't care what said, those are NOT substantive reasons to invest millions to build more easier golf courses.

The reason golf courses have been designed the way the are is to attract a certain mindset that likes challenge. Its not the better golfers problem if average Joe won't pick the right tees for his game, or pick the courses that best suite his game; those are his personal problems. I read those prevailing arguments to say average Joe wants to feel good about his lack of effort towards his game, when that's not what the game of golf is about. By design, golf exposes weaknesses that need attention. NO attention = lousy scores and feeling bad.

It boils down to those of us that chase challenge and strive to improve IN LIFE, while accepting our weaknesses; verses those that think they somehow deserve courses to be built to accommodate their lack of desire and weaknesses; brings to mind who loves capitalism vs. socialism.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1357121984' post='6152445']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357087240' post='6150585']
Can you explain to my why 15 and 16 indexes would be playing the next to the most difficult tees here??? Why not the whites or golds? What should the expectations be of a 15 or 16 handicap playing the tees that play to a 141 slope rating??? Seriously.......you can blame the course all you want but if someone's ego ego drags you back to tees where they don't belong how can I have sympathy for them???
[/quote]

The problem with your thinking as with the whole "tee it forward" philosophy when driven to the extreme is this:
There are players whose HI is in the mid-teens, who actually drive the ball pretty well, thanks to today's technology, and who hit the ball almost as long as the "short" tour players. When you have these players play from tees which make the course play to under 6.000 yards, they do not play the course the way it was meant to be played, because the hazards which should be in play off the tee, aren't any more. Yet, it does not really change the difficulty of the course in the department they really struggle with.
A tee shot on a par 4 or par 5 with a carry of 200 yards makes me sweat way less than an approach shot of 150 yards or less with no bail-out area around the green.
So, if the "Do-or-die" shots are those towards the greens, "playing the correct tees" will change nothing.
[/quote]

Your argument conveniently overlooked a key aspect of golf.. "proper" course management. NO golfer should pick tees for one or two club strengths, which is what you're suggesting. They should pick tee's that help them work on strengthening their weaknesses over 18 holes. That means on 6000yd tees, the driver stays in the bag.

Typically, course yardages out to 6300yds I use 2 iron off most tees, maybe 3 wood. In other words, driver and 3 wood are NOT prerequisites for scoring over 18 holes. But on every course effective long, mid and short irons are prerequisites for scoring.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357092757' post='6151065']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357087436' post='6150601']
[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1357067454' post='6148921']
I'll give it a shot. TPC Stadium Course in La Quinta. [u]I've never played it, but only because it's always packed and the rates are too high.[/u] Maybe I'll give it go this summer.


[/quote]

Thanks for trying but I didn't have to read any more beyond what I underlined. The course is packed and is drawing top dollar. How could you claim its a bad design, too difficult or unfair. If those things were true this would be the first course in the area to lose business. Keep trying.
[/quote]

I think most people play TPC Stadium because of the challenge. [b]My point is that if PGA pro's believe it is too difficult for them[/b], it is also too difficult for the "average golfer".

Obviously this course is doing well, mostly because it is notoriously difficult. I personally don't think we should make courses easier, just giving an example of a very difficult course in my area.
[/quote]

The bold statement is true. However, you're not addressing WHY the PGA tour won't play there.. its because tour players have grown spoiled with specific conditions, and they want to go low all the time for stats, and to feed OEM sponsor wishes and marketing. Courses in rotation, like the Stadium, would detract from "these guys are good" marketing.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357151475' post='6154083']
NO golfer should pick tees for one or two club strengths, which is what you're suggesting. They should pick tee's that help them work on strengthening their weaknesses over 18 holes. That means on 6000yd tees, the driver stays in the bag.[/quote]

Why do you assume that playing golf is a self-improvement project? I do it because it's fun. I'm not out there to help "strengthen" any "weaknesses". If I wanted to do that I'd make three trips a week to the gym instead of the golf course.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1357151999' post='6154149']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357151475' post='6154083']
NO golfer should pick tees for one or two club strengths, which is what you're suggesting. They should pick tee's that help them work on strengthening their weaknesses over 18 holes. That means on 6000yd tees, the driver stays in the bag.[/quote]

Why do you assume that playing golf is a self-improvement project? I do it because it's fun. I'm not out there to help "strengthen" any "weaknesses". If I wanted to do that I'd make three trips a week to the gym instead of the golf course.
[/quote]

I "assumed" nothing about you, partly because I wasn't speaking to you. And, aside from that word not being in my day-to-day vocabulary, I made it quite clear there are two different types of golfers. As you know, golf is a game... we either effectively use course mgt or don't, and live with the consequences. Apparently you live the consequences in golf and not going to the gym.

[kellygreen]

I guess Jack Nicklaus was one of those spoiled-rotten pros too. Because this was what he had to say about TPC Sawgrass after it hosted its first PGA Tour event.

He was asked if the course suited his game. He replied, "[i][b]No. I've never been very good at stopping a 5-iron on the hood of a car."[/b][/i]

It's gotten very fashionable for amateurs and sports writers to bad-mouth tour pros for being "spoiled" and having/wanting "cushy" course conditions. But the bottomline is that some course designers...and some major championship course set-ups....cross the line. Cross the line from being tough-but-fair....to simply being UNREASONABLE tests of golf skill.

Like--as Jack suggested---expecting someone to hit a 2x3 yard landing area from 190 yds away.

As skilled a player as Mickelson is...and how much of a risk-taker he is on the course...if he is bad-mouthing a design, then I'm willing to take his word for the fact that it has crossed the line over into clown-cars-and-windmills.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1357151999' post='6154149']
[i][b]Why do you assume that playing golf is a self-improvement project?[/b][/i] I do it because it's fun. I'm not out there to help "strengthen" any "weaknesses". If I wanted to do that I'd make three trips a week to the gym instead of the golf course.
[/quote]

In the spirt of [i]It-Takes-One-To-Know-One[/i]....because that is how some (perfectionistic, Type-A) people have learned to define "fun".

It took me years to realize that I was taking that attitude onto the golf course, and that it was a hinderance to me playing my best golf. When I stopped taking my score as a reflection of my worth as a human being, I started having a lot more REAL fun on the course...and started playing much better (ironically) to boot.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I always figure some folks set out to prove that golf is a darned hard game. And they tend to find that it's true.

Others of us think it's a darned fun game. And we tend to find out it's true.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357150819' post='6154003']
It boils down to those of us that chase challenge and strive to improve IN LIFE, while accepting our weaknesses; verses those that think they somehow deserve courses to be built to accommodate their lack of desire and weaknesses; brings to mind who loves capitalism vs. socialism.
[/quote]

Honestly, Pepper...you cannot be a serious. Some of the stuff you post is like a caricature of a human being. These points aren't even responsive to the counter arguments being made. Nobody is here whining because courses are hard. Most of the people that are making the argument that the unplayability of the modern golf course is hurting the game are good players. How do you square that with this nonsense?

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1357178307' post='6156799']
I always figure some folks set out to prove that golf is a darned hard game. And they tend to find that it's true.

Others of us think it's a darned fun game. And we tend to find out it's true.
[/quote]

Well said. It has nothing to do with the course. It's attitude.

Play the course you want to and have fun doing it. In the
end for many of us the camaraderie is what makes the
day enjoyable.

There's always something to b**** about if that's what
you're looking for.

[Sean2]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1357168418' post='6155869']
I guess Jack Nicklaus was one of those spoiled-rotten pros too. Because this was what he had to say about TPC Sawgrass after it hosted its first PGA Tour event.

He was asked if the course suited his game. He replied, "[i][b]No. I've never been very good at stopping a 5-iron on the hood of a car."[/b][/i]

It's gotten very fashionable for amateurs and sports writers to bad-mouth tour pros for being "spoiled" and having/wanting "cushy" course conditions. But the bottomline is that some course designers...and some major championship course set-ups....cross the line. Cross the line from being tough-but-fair....to simply being UNREASONABLE tests of golf skill.

Like--as Jack suggested---expecting someone to hit a 2x3 yard landing area from 190 yds away.

As skilled a player as Mickelson is...and how much of a risk-taker he is on the course...if he is bad-mouthing a design, then I'm willing to take his word for the fact that it has crossed the line over into clown-cars-and-windmills.
[/quote]

And it was Luke Donald who said it started with Pete Dye...and a lot of architects followed Dye's lead...where that line was crossed.

[Conrad1953]

Penal golf course design didn't start with Pete Dye. Think
Pine Valley and Oakmont: courses I wish I could play but
will never have the chance.

[avrag]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357151475' post='6154083']
But on every course effective long, mid and short irons are prerequisites for scoring.
[/quote]

But that was exatly what I am saying. A golfer who does not play as well as you will have trouble with the shots to massively defended greens, no matter which tees he uses. Those difficult shots to the greens will still be the problem. So SurfDuffer's argument that peole should play "proper" tees and their problems would solve themselves is not valid in my view, when a course offers no margin of error around the greens.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1357216337' post='6158939']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357151475' post='6154083']
But on every course effective long, mid and short irons are prerequisites for scoring.
[/quote]

But that was exatly what I am saying. A golfer who does not play as well as you will have trouble with the shots to massively defended greens, no matter which tees he uses. Those difficult shots to the greens will still be the problem. So SurfDuffer's argument that peole should play "proper" tees and their problems would solve themselves is not valid in my view, when a course offers no margin of error around the greens.
[/quote]

I was responding to the fictitious group of golfers referenced in a previous post where half of the group loses a dozen balls on a particular course in California. Go look at all the pictures of that particular course on the web. Those fictional stinky golfers aren't losing all those balls from the fairway on that course....they are losing them off the tee.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1357217317' post='6158977']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1357216337' post='6158939']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1357151475' post='6154083']
But on every course effective long, mid and short irons are prerequisites for scoring.
[/quote]

But that was exatly what I am saying. A golfer who does not play as well as you will have trouble with the shots to massively defended greens, no matter which tees he uses. Those difficult shots to the greens will still be the problem. So SurfDuffer's argument that peole should play "proper" tees and their problems would solve themselves is not valid in my view, when a course offers no margin of error around the greens.
[/quote]

I was responding to the fictitious group of golfers referenced in a previous post where half of the group loses a dozen balls on a particular course in California. Go look at all the pictures of that particular course on the web. Those fictional stinky golfers aren't losing all those balls from the fairway on that course....they are losing them off the tee.
[/quote]

I see Surf is now clairvoyant, too. This thread is stale. You guys just keep enjoying your 5 1/2 hour rounds.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1357187671' post='6157871']
Penal golf course design didn't start with Pete Dye. Think
Pine Valley and Oakmont: courses I wish I could play but
will never have the chance.
[/quote]

There is a difference between penal and "unplayable", as some pros have suggested.

[MileHighClub]

If you think a course is unplayable, then don't play it. If you think they are all unplayable, then don't play at all. It isn't rocket science.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1357187671' post='6157871']
[i][b]Penal golf course design didn't start with Pete Dye. T[/b][/i]hink
Pine Valley and Oakmont: courses I wish I could play but
will never have the chance.
[/quote]

Penal golf? No, it didn't.

But penal golf combined with TARGET golf that forces the player to hit the ball high, quick-stopping shots everwhere, did imo.

Dye, crosses the line into unplayable because he a fairly hostile attitude towards the players who play his courses. He doesn't seek to challenge them, he wants to intimidate and embarrass them.