Neuropathy

[profsmitty]

We've had a long running thread on this forum about the challenge that arthritis poses for golfers, particularly those of "a certain age". I'm curious how many of us are now dealing with another vexing health challenge, peripheral neuropathy. I know many diabetics suffer with PN. Non-diabetics, like me, have PN without identifiable causes.

 

How does PN affect your game? How have you adapted your game because of your PN?

[leaningtiger]

I have been relegated to riding whenever I play. I also can't wear golf shoes anymore; I wear my Brooks Beast running shoes and do just fine. Just be vigilant in looking for blisters EVERY morning and night. I almost lost both feet a few years back when blisters turned into diabetic ulcers. Wearing orthotics has helped tremendously. I've been to Scotland and was able to get a cart at every course on the Open rota, which was kind of strange since walking is the norm there. Good health to you and your feet.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Neuropathy, or How I spent my Summer Vacation...

I too have non-diabetic neuropathy. I discovered it about 15 months ago when I went to the Orthopods due to a huge pain in my left ankle. I had sprained it in July of 2011. Never had any indication of PN. Doc said be careful and let it heal. only come back if it gets worse.
Well... over the next 8 months, after painfully walking all over the villages and vineyards of Germany and beach fishing in Florida, I decided to walk 9 holes of golf when I returned home. By the 7th hole the pain level escalated from very uncomfortable to excruciating. I thought about going to the ER. instead, I got into my Orthopedic surgeon a few days later. (the same one who told me to come back if the sprain got any worse). He took a look at my foot asked me a few questions and sent me for xrays, telling me he already knew what he thought the films would show. It seems I have Charcot's Syndrome or Charcot's Foot which happens to people with Neuropathy.
With Neuropathy, people can turn a minor foot injury into a really big problem because they can not feel the pain when the wound is worsened. That is essentially Charcot's. The new Xray revealed that I had broken all the bones on the top of my foot. I had to wear a foot brace/support cast and use crutches or a scooter for almost 5 months. He said the bones were so crunched up that if he tried to go in surgically, some of the bones could fall out.
Probably a bit of an exaggeration . But the critical part was when I asked him if I could just get some pain pills an tough it out.
His response was that, without rest, it would never heal. Also one of the broken bones could puncture some soft tissue and, since I couldn't feel it very well, it would probably go unnoticed: until I got to the point where he would need to Amputate my Leg!! That got my undivided attention.
Even this year, I have only played 18 holes four times, always in a cart. Orthotics help tremendously. But my feet still hurt. Neuropathy doesn't eliminate all the pain. I am playing in New Balance WM928 walking shoes. If I overswing I can lose my balance; but I used to do that with soft spikes. My handicap is about 6 strokes over 2011. But I have only played a total of 6 rounds and 6 nines since i got back on my feet last September . All bad golf on sore feet.
But regardless of my age, whenever I have not played very much, l have not played very well. I always had to play more to keep from totally scraping it around the course. It is just much harder now than it was when i was younger. Unfortunately I don't ;play nearly as much as I once did.
However, now that I am playing poorly, I lose interest in playing at all. My index has quadrupled in the past 20 years. So it is the old Catch 22 deal: if I don't play much, I don't play well. When I don't play well, I don't want to play much. the ego begins to hurt more than the feet. I still love golf. I just hate to hack. Sometimes when I get ready to hit an iron shot, i feel like I am holding onto a venomous reptile. Kind of tough swinging the club when you have a death grip on it.
But I digress. if you have neuropathy, pay attention. Great suggestion about checking your feet daily. Use a mirror or have your spouse check the bottoms of your tootsies. an ounce of prevention can eliminate a lot more than a pound of cure.
Ah, life in the fast lane.
Uncle Bob

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks for turning me on to something else I need to be on the lookout for.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1374533674' post='7517202']
Thanks for turning me on to something else I need to be on the lookout for.
[/quote]the neuropathy or the apathy?

[oldschoolrocker]

The neuropathy Bob. At my age I've already got a handle on the apathy.
Have been doing some nerve conductivity studies and if my problems come back I will throw this out to my neurologist and perhaps have a new direction to proceed.

[profsmitty]

Bob - the good people at Mayo Clinic gave me tha news about Charcot as well. For me, it is better to know than wonder. I play golf for many reasons. Scoring well is only one. I pray that you find what there is in golf that is still available for you.

[oldschoolrocker]

Seems a shame that once we have went through the fire of nothing matters but numbers on a scorecard, and are now blessed with at least a modest degree of wisdom with respect to the true virtues we can accrue playing this great game, that our bodies betray us.

A well played post Prof.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1374638531' post='7527348']
Bob - the good people at Mayo Clinic gave me tha news about Charcot as well. For me, it is better to know than wonder. I play golf for many reasons. Scoring well is only one. I pray that you find what there is in golf that is still available for you.
[/quote]
Thanks, Randy.
I think I am out of my funk. Going to tee it up tomorrow, Fri and Sat in my club's invitational. I plan on having a great time , regardless of the score. My Brother and I have been playing in this event for a long time. We will have a good, if irreverent, time.
Playing in the Seniors' flight for the first time and it involves handicap. so the ugly holes are, hopefully, not as catastrophic as in a scratch event. Plus, everyone in our flight will be geezers with afflictions like ours. A lot of BS will be spread by everybody.

[profsmitty]

I'll be with you in spirit. It's no fun to sit on the sidelines and watch as life goes by, hole after hole. I know how bad it hurts but the pain of losing "the game" is more painful. I wish I could say something profound about the medical effects of playing but frankly I don't know if playing causes more damage than not playing. My guess is that we have done all the damage we can to ourselves already. I try to be careful when I'm not playing - kind of a "every step I don't take doing something I don't have to do is one more step I can take on the course" mentality. I have a great pain control doc and a drug program that helps with the bad stuff. I make myself do what they tell me to do about working to lose weight - I've lost 10 - 15 pounds. I'm trying. I just hope the golf gods will eventually smile on all this and reward me somehow. I hope so for you as we'll. good luck, my friend.

[profsmitty]

I did just think of something - golf related - that might help, Bob. I heard Padrig say that one of the things he does in high winds to keep from losing balance is to spread his stance out. As you know, the balance thing is a problem for us. So, I have been trying to spread out, open up my stance slightly to keep the pressure of my left foot on the follow-through, and try very hard not to over swing. I'm sure you've tried all of these things and more but just in case. If you think of things you are doing, please share. Smitty

[luggage]

I prefer to walk when I play using Bag Boy tri cart rather than ride in a cart. I do have diabetes II but do not take medicine since able to control it with diet and exercise. I walk for exercise and weight control but suddenly after and during round my feet began to feel like they were beaten with rods. Podiatrist says I have neuropathy and prescribed a topical cream (????) to rub on prior to playing. I have left the golf shoes and switched to New Balance Walking shoes but to date no relief. Does anyone have a recommendation for a great shoe to play in that may help relieve the pain in my feet? If the cream doesn't work he said we would have to go with prescription drug. Any one else have this problem? I really want to keep walking and playing. I am so grateful for this forum. It is the BEST!!

[Pigems]

Have you tried a set of custom made in soles in?? Made for your specific feet?? Or custom shoes in the same mold?? Might be an idea to try

[Ol_Pardner]

Came across this thread while scrolling thr. I'm 60 with arthritis all over, and Plantar's Facitis in my right heel, and probably some neuropathy. My Podiatrist recommended either New Balance or Asics shoes, the latter because most of the line has Gel in the heels. Had trouble getting a good fit in NBs previously, so went with Asics. Now wearing Asics Trainers most of the time, even golf. Still keep a bag full of various orthotics handy, and swap them out as needed. He also recommended 6" high work boots for yardwork and other activities. Have an old pair of Rockports to wear to weddings, banquets, and funerals--just find a comfortable pair of orthotics, sometimes mix and match.
April and 1st 2 weeks in May seem to be the toughtest time periods for these ailments, for me. Don't know if its the frequent changes in barometric pressure with the "April Showers."
Do any of you have a particular time of year when you are more likely to experience "Flare-ups" Neuro or Skeletal problems?
Last August, I was pounding away with a Hogan 1953 Comemmorative Driver with a Legend 5(X) shaft, now, it's a Hogan Director Laminate with an Apex 3 (Lightweight steel, red band) shaft.

[cardoustie]

Guys

Feel sorry for you. My Dad has if awfully bad and at 75 he can barely walk. I worry it will haunt me later in life as well. He does use a DN cream and he claims it helps him a lot. Also has orthotics

He had to stop golfing 5 or 6 years ago, it was too much for him

[nbg352]

[quote name='Ol_Pardner' timestamp='1431013669' post='11516869']
Came across this thread while scrolling thr. I'm 60 with arthritis all over, and Plantar's Facitis in my right heel, and probably some neuropathy. My Podiatrist recommended either New Balance or Asics shoes, the latter because most of the line has Gel in the heels. Had trouble getting a good fit in NBs previously, so went with Asics. Now wearing Asics Trainers most of the time, even golf. Still keep a bag full of various orthotics handy, and swap them out as needed. He also recommended 6" high work boots for yardwork and other activities. Have an old pair of Rockports to wear to weddings, banquets, and funerals--just find a comfortable pair of orthotics, sometimes mix and match.
April and 1st 2 weeks in May seem to be the toughtest time periods for these ailments, for me. Don't know if its the frequent changes in barometric pressure with the "April Showers."
Do any of you have a particular time of year when you are more likely to experience "Flare-ups" Neuro or Skeletal problems?
Last August, I was pounding away with a Hogan 1953 Comemmorative Driver with a Legend 5(X) shaft, now, it's a Hogan Director Laminate with an Apex 3 (Lightweight steel, red band) shaft.
[/quote]
You don't happen to be on Lipitor, do you? Please pm me if you are.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Ol_Pardner, nice to see you.

Spring is worse for me as I think it coincides with more physical activity than I engage in during the winter. But this spring has been particularly problematic for arthritis in my left foot, and sciatic nerve issues which I have apparently had for about 8 years, but was only diagnosed this year. The symptoms of this were similar to those experienced in PN, so definitely a good visit to a sports doctor and/or physio is what I'd recommend, simply as they are more specialized than your typical GP. What looks like PN may be something different, especially if some other condition is pinching off main nerve pathways.

NBs have given me bursitis in the past, whereas Asics have not. Both the Gel -Cumulus and Gel-Nimbus offer lots of cushioning, plus a generous toebox for your orthotic, plus better cushioning than NB. I'm currently wearing Gel-Cumulus and have been very happy with them.

Wish I could deal with the arthritis developing in the T section of my back. Ah, a lovely thing to be ageing.

[Ol_Pardner]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1431015430' post='11517055']
[quote name='Ol_Pardner' timestamp='1431013669' post='11516869']
Came across this thread while scrolling thr. I'm 60 with arthritis all over, and Plantar's Facitis in my right heel, and probably some neuropathy. My Podiatrist recommended either New Balance or Asics shoes, the latter because most of the line has Gel in the heels. Had trouble getting a good fit in NBs previously, so went with Asics. Now wearing Asics Trainers most of the time, even golf. Still keep a bag full of various orthotics handy, and swap them out as needed. He also recommended 6" high work boots for yardwork and other activities. Have an old pair of Rockports to wear to weddings, banquets, and funerals--just find a comfortable pair of orthotics, sometimes mix and match.
April and 1st 2 weeks in May seem to be the toughtest time periods for these ailments, for me. Don't know if its the frequent changes in barometric pressure with the "April Showers."
Do any of you have a particular time of year when you are more likely to experience "Flare-ups" Neuro or Skeletal problems?
Last August, I was pounding away with a Hogan 1953 Comemmorative Driver with a Legend 5(X) shaft, now, it's a Hogan Director Laminate with an Apex 3 (Lightweight steel, red band) shaft.
[/quote]
You don't happen to be on Lipitor, do you? Please pm me if you are.
[/quote]

nbg352, No not Lipitor, but I do take Losartin-Potassium 100 mg for BP and have been taking the max dosage (200mg x 2) Celebrex for Arthritis for several years now. Are you concerned about a particular problem or side effect of Lipitor?

[Ol_Pardner]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1431017443' post='11517213']
Ol_Pardner, nice to see you.

Spring is worse for me as I think it coincides with more physical activity than I engage in during the winter. But this spring has been particularly problematic for arthritis in my left foot, and sciatic nerve issues which I have apparently had for about 8 years, but was only diagnosed this year. The symptoms of this were similar to those experienced in PN, so definitely a good visit to a sports doctor and/or physio is what I'd recommend, simply as they are more specialized than your typical GP. What looks like PN may be something different, especially if some other condition is pinching off main nerve pathways.

NBs have given me bursitis in the past, whereas Asics have not. Both the Gel -Cumulus and Gel-Nimbus offer lots of cushioning, plus a generous toebox for your orthotic, plus better cushioning than NB. I'm currently wearing Gel-Cumulus and have been very happy with them.

Wish I could deal with the arthritis developing in the T section of my back. Ah, a lovely thing to be ageing.
[/quote]

Hello Scooter, How goes it? Are the Aussie Blades still working for you?
Interesting experience with NBs, I researched them, Diabetes Assoc. recommended them, but found them too stiff and came to believe they aggravated the plantar's facitis. For someone seeking a firm shoe with a lot of support, they would be probably be fine. Agree,that the Gel in the Asics is much more comfortable.
I had some problems with Sciatica several years ago, and found a couple of stretches that gave me relief:
First: Have you tried sitting on the floor, spreading your feet out wide, extend your arms, finger tips out, then slowly bending and lowering your upper body as you try to touch your toes? (You should visualize your arm and hand movement as sliding down your leg, not in a wide arc like some do their situps.) I take it a step further by grabbing my calves or ankles and giving a slight, easy tug. I do it 2 or 3 times.
The second stretch is basically the same, except standing up with your feet wide apart. In fact I normally do it while warming up and stretching for Golf. What I normally do, since I've been taking practice swings, is to lay the club across the top of my feet--wide spread apart-- slowly bend at the waist, hands at your sides, start to feel your weight more in your legs, again slowly rotate the arms and palms to legs, try to touch your toes and/or grab your ankles, hold it for a couple of seconds, then relax and pick up the golf club, then ease back up to the standing position.
Keywords are: SLOW, Concentrate, Feel the Stretch, Ease into It. [OK, and before someone posts it: "Just Be the Ball Betty, er Danny!"]
I've seen pro Football and Baseball players doing the First stretch in their warmups. Of course, their primary objective is in stretching their hamstring muscles, but an ancillary effect for those of us no longer in our 20s and 30s is a stretch of the sciatic and hip region.
Maybe something like the above could give you some relief. Don't know if the Gurus at Titleist Performance have anything like it in their archives, since I've been doing some of that stuff before there was a Golfwrx, or Golf Channel. If I come across anything similar, online I'll send you the address. [Not gonna post a video, since I've been working in the Garden and doing DIYs and yardwork, and I'm dressed like Jed Clampett!]

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1431017443' post='11517213']
Ol_Pardner, nice to see you.

Spring is worse for me as I think it coincides with more physical activity than I engage in during the winter. But this spring has been particularly problematic for arthritis in my left foot, and sciatic nerve issues which I have apparently had for about 8 years, but was only diagnosed this year. The symptoms of this were similar to those experienced in PN, so definitely a good visit to a sports doctor and/or physio is what I'd recommend, simply as they are more specialized than your typical GP. What looks like PN may be something different, especially if some other condition is pinching off main nerve pathways.

NBs have given me bursitis in the past, whereas Asics have not. Both the Gel -Cumulus and Gel-Nimbus offer lots of cushioning, plus a generous toebox for your orthotic, plus better cushioning than NB. I'm currently wearing Gel-Cumulus and have been very happy with them.

Wish I could deal with the arthritis developing in the T section of my back. Ah, a lovely thing to be ageing.
[/quote]

Tell me about ageing Scott...I twisted my left knee back in December (missing a step) and probably aggravated it when I hit 100 balls 3 weeks ago. Now, it feels like bone on bone and I should call an orthopedic doctor for an X-ray or MRI. Double nickels is not starting off like I had hoped it would be!!!

[HoldenCornfield]

I sympathize with those suffering from neuropathy, I had a bad case of it a few years ago during my chemo treatments but was very fortunate to have all the normal feelings and sensations come back a few months after treatments ended.

One comment about orthotics and modern shoes and such, and I don't offer this as advice or a suggestion, just thought it was interesting, but I recently came across this book called [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Run:_A_Hidden_Tribe,_Superathletes,_and_the_Greatest_Race_the_World_Has_Never_Seen"]Born to Run: A Hidden Tribe, Superathletes, and the Greatest Race the World Has Never Seen[/url]:[/i]

[i] "[/i][color=#252525]After being repeatedly injured as a runner himself, McDougall (the author) marvels at the tribe's ability to run ultra distances (over 100 miles) at incredible speeds, without getting the routine injuries of most American runners. The book has received attention in the sporting world for McDougall's description of how he overcame injuries by modeling his running after the Tarahumara.[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Run:_A_Hidden_Tribe,_Superathletes,_and_the_Greatest_Race_the_World_Has_Never_Seen#cite_note-nyt-2"][2][/url][/sup][color=#252525] He asserts that modern cushioned [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_shoes"]running shoes[/url][color=#252525] are a major cause of running injury, pointing to the thin sandals worn by Tarahumara runners, and the explosion of running-related injuries since the introduction of modern running shoes in 1972."[/color]

[color=#252525]I haven't read it but it piqued my curiousity. Last fall I bought a pair of Converse All Stars, first pair I've owned since high school (aside - did you know they've been made since the 1920's? Yeah, me either). But after I got them home and started wearing them I was like Jeez, these shoes are brutal. How did I ever wear these with no padding/support etc?[/color]

[color=#252525]But, my wife kept on me until I started wearing them regularly and now that I've adjusted I find them to be quite comfortable. In fact, its modern sneakers that now feel awkward.[/color]

[color=#252525]Point being, maybe whoever designed the human foot knew what he was doing after all. And its quite possible that modern shoe technology has caused as many foot problems as its fixed. Kinda like modern golf club technology...just a thought.[/color]

[ScooterMcTavish]

Interesting discussion HC, and a lot of this mentality has led to minimalist running shoes that a certain segment of runners wear.

As an oft-injured runner, I've read articles about this (both pro and con) - my conclusion? It's too complex of an argument to break down to one simple defining factor. If I was an African Tribesman who ran regularly 50-75 miles a day, with minimal BMI, who ate a whole food high-protein minimally processed diet, and had a foot that had never seen an orthotically correct shoe, it is likely my injury history would be better.

However, if I had gills, I could breathe water

Point being, considering all the factors in place, it is a bit derivative to try and distill the only thing causing running injury is the shoes. From a personal perspective, without cushioning shoes, I would be unable to even run, as I supinate, and beat the holy hell out of my lower body due to this.

[rcain1us]

I have a similar problem in my legs and hands caused by MS.

My biggest issue being balance, at first I thought I was done with golf.

I eventually figured out how to get enough balance back just walking in general (I actually have to watch me feet when I walk).

My friends got me back on the course and have actually started walking the course again. I can't do it without a push cart and I can't do hills (I joined a nice flat course).

I use Superfeet insoles in everything that seem to help by pushing me just a little forward on my feet.

Occasionally I will lose my balance on the tee but have learned to take a step at the end of my follow through.

For my hands I am up to 5 wraps under a std grip, with a normal grip I feel like I don't have a hold on everything and end up gripping too hard..

[Nspiel58]

Two suggestions from a 56 year old here. I've been doing yoga pretty consistently for the last year and my strength and flexibility have dramatically improved. Though I don't suffer from neuropathy, I believe the kind of stretching, muscle strengthening, and balance which come as a result of practicing yoga, have tremendous health benefits. The other thing, more controversial of course, is the use of medical marijuana or just plain using it in juicing or eating. I started smoking again after a 30+ year hiatus. I see no ill-effects whatsoever, and it's quite clear that I"ve just learned to relax about a lot of things since starting. I've linked the study below which discusses aid for neuropathy sufferers. It's clear that more and more elder folks are looking into the benefits of cannibas for all areas of health. All the best.

http://www.weedist.com/2014/08/study-cannabis-inhaler-delivers-effective-relief-to-neuropathy-patients/

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1431092011' post='11522279']
I sympathize with those suffering from neuropathy, I had a bad case of it a few years ago during my chemo treatments but was very fortunate to have all the normal feelings and sensations come back a few months after treatments ended.

One comment about orthotics and modern shoes and such, and I don't offer this as advice or a suggestion, just thought it was interesting, but I recently came across this book called [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Run:_A_Hidden_Tribe,_Superathletes,_and_the_Greatest_Race_the_World_Has_Never_Seen"]Born to Run: A Hidden Tribe, Superathletes, and the Greatest Race the World Has Never Seen[/url]:[/i]

[i] "[/i][color=#252525]After being repeatedly injured as a runner himself, McDougall (the author) marvels at the tribe's ability to run ultra distances (over 100 miles) at incredible speeds, without getting the routine injuries of most American runners. The book has received attention in the sporting world for McDougall's description of how he overcame injuries by modeling his running after the Tarahumara.[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Run:_A_Hidden_Tribe,_Superathletes,_and_the_Greatest_Race_the_World_Has_Never_Seen#cite_note-nyt-2"][2][/url][/sup][color=#252525] He asserts that modern cushioned [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_shoes"]running shoes[/url][color=#252525] are a major cause of running injury, pointing to the thin sandals worn by Tarahumara runners, and the explosion of running-related injuries since the introduction of modern running shoes in 1972."[/color]

[color=#252525]I haven't read it but it piqued my curiousity. Last fall I bought a pair of Converse All Stars, first pair I've owned since high school (aside - did you know they've been made since the 1920's? Yeah, me either). But after I got them home and started wearing them I was like Jeez, these shoes are brutal. How did I ever wear these with no padding/support etc?[/color]

[color=#252525]But, my wife kept on me until I started wearing them regularly and now that I've adjusted I find them to be quite comfortable. In fact, its modern sneakers that now feel awkward.[/color]

[color=#252525]Point being, maybe whoever designed the human foot knew what he was doing after all. And its quite possible that modern shoe technology has caused as many foot problems as its fixed. Kinda like modern golf club technology...just a thought.[/color]
[/quote]Actually I have been playing golf in Chucky T Converse for years mostly for the ankle support. I have always had flat feet and bad ankles and I have a pin in my left ankle. With the soles being flat they help my balance and the high tops along with the Ace ankle supports give me support and my ankles don't hurt

[oldschoolrocker]

As a kid I ran exclusively in PF Flyers, then Allstars in the teen years. As a track athlete I progressed to what we called a cross country shoe when running the boards and nails on a cinder track. None of the above had anything resembling today's insoles. I never begin to have any running related injury's until I started training in the waffle stompers later in life.