Question for former flippers!

[lowndes]

I flip through impact and have tried and tried to hit the ball with forward shaft lean to no avail. Anyways just am really discouraged by not being able to get this fixed. Curious as to people who have successfully been cured (1) how long did it take and (2) what did you find most helpful?

[Eddie]

For me, my problem was two fold, my weight was shifting too far off the ball during my backswing (and subsequently had to slide back into the ball), and I always felt like my hands had to be forward, since I was behind the ball, I had no choice to flip.

Two things that I used to get me back to normal.

1) Make sure I turn behind the ball, not sway off of it.

2) On the way down, I had to stop visualizing my hands being "ahead" of the ball, but rather imagining my hands driving the ball down into the ground. That thought stopped me from flipping or overthinking my hands, just hands down into the ball.

I know it might not be much help, but hopefully some others will chime in with better advice.

[Timanator]

Took me about 3 month, I had a lesson with SliceFixer and understood how to work the correct sequence in and what to practice.

[33 Handicap]

Awesome question.
It feels like flip because I lose spine angle and/or my body stops turning.still figuring it all out.illumination soon come.

[Rodabodem]

Keep your right hand on top of the shaft through impact.

[goobers80]

[color=#800080]I hads a slight *flip* , which was nots all that bad , but hurts consistency and instructor wanted the tour ball contacts sound. He goes a lots off of sounds and how to make the sound. He is former PGA president and other things and player , so i trusts he knows good contact sounds. [/color]

[color=#800080]Ball more forward thans i was used to helped me. I woulds say the most help was a few drills. Gripping a wood by near the heads ands swinging shaft , trying to make the *woosh* sounds in fronts of the body / ball. Haves to feel like gravity lets arms go down and the *hit* is much laters thans i was used to. [/color]

[color=#800080]Putting a ball in fronts of the one hitting , and *try* to hit both. Means extension and low through impacts , where as a flip will go up with club head. Just haves to put ball far enoughs so not to hit it actually. And last drill was to let club *fall* in fronts of me on way down and from there , hit the ball as hard as possible. [/color]

[color=#800080]For me *pulling* with left hand (not the club, just the hand , or coulds be too tense in wrists or squeeze with grips) , down and low past ball , hitting with right hand was another. He tolds me to do abouts 10 of a drill swings , 10 of forgetting drills , repeatings to let the feel *seep* into the real swings.[/color]

[color=#800080]I woulds say the most and easiest *idea* was to make sure right shoulder got behinds me on backswings , extend through impacts , letting left elbow finish higher , and a full finish helped most. Anything else was a slight flip or *alligator arms* meanings pulling back into body after impact , which is nots helpful. Also to stand taller through impacts and address. Otherwise no rooms for arms to work.[/color]

[color=#800080]Also to remember , nots swinging the club head to hits the ball. It will square up with good sequences. I go back to these if i start to *struggle* slightly. Nothing mechanical , just feels.[/color]

[sigmapete1]

I am not 100% cured but I have come a long way from a really bad casting release. The thought or "feel" that clicked for me was to feel a "late hit." What I mean by that is that when I was castign, I had in my mind a certain point in my body pivot that the club should make contact. No matter how textbook my pivot was, years of casting had it ingrained that at a certain point in my pivot, the club should hit the ball. Of course because I was casting, that internal timing told my brain to hit the ball too quickly.

Once I thought to myself, "hit it later in the swing," it was like I had given my brain permission to let the pivot work the hands into the right position rather than my right hand casting the clubhead into the ball. I still get handsy but its getting less and less and when I start to do it, I always go back to practicing the "late hit."

[msegroves]

[quote name='Rodabodem' timestamp='1363312541' post='6614361']
Keep your right hand on top of the shaft through impact.
[/quote]

Rodabodem is spot on. To get this feeling I personally had to shorten my back swing by a good bit and keep my body turning through impact.

[Yuck]

It is tough. A well timed stall and flip with the driver can really generate some speed, even if you cannot tell where it will go. I am not cured yet, but for me, a non-flip core driven driver is about 7 MPH slower then the stall / flip. I have less of a tendency to flip at an iron, so that has been less of a problem. When you figure this out, let me know.

[Jobu]

[quote name='Yuck' timestamp='1363316891' post='6614889']
It is tough. A well timed stall and flip with the driver can really generate some speed, even if you cannot tell where it will go. I am not cured yet, but for me, a non-flip core driven driver is about 7 MPH slower then the stall / flip. I have less of a tendency to flip at an iron, so that has been less of a problem. When you figure this out, let me know.
[/quote]

the flip is very inefficient. the clubhead loses more speed at impact due to broken wrists. Keeping firm pressure on the grip will help the clubhead hit through the ball without losing much speed, and smash factor goes up.

[Gbyeball]

Something in the chain of events before impact is the reason why you flip, must identify that first. Our bodies are amazing pieces of equipment and you flip because if you didn't you would miss the ball. Same as how do I stop shanking ( been there not a nice place) just too many causes to throw out a blind cure.

[Hogan1975]

Yea..the flip is a mother...tour striker helps, especially off of Hardpan practice. Can't cheat that thing there,, feeling like you are hitting with an open face is good. Or almost like you are rotating face open prior to impact ..really does it

[lowndes]

Thanks for all the replies. Really just looking for some encouragement and to make me feel better. I've been seeing Geoff and working on getting fixed and just got discouraged in the last couple of weeks because when I put my swing on video I can still see that I flip through impact pretty bad (and if I didn't i would shank the ball). Although this morning I noticed I did have some nice shaft lean when I hit the ball really focusing on a good turn going back and using my core. Only thing is you hear people talk about it should feel like the shaft is about to break. I have never had that feeling hitting the ball.

[lowndes]

[quote name='Eddie' timestamp='1363310159' post='6614059']
For me, my problem was two fold, my weight was shifting too far off the ball during my backswing (and subsequently had to slide back into the ball), and I always felt like my hands had to be forward, since I was behind the ball, I had no choice to flip.

Two things that I used to get me back to normal.

1) Make sure I turn behind the ball, not sway off of it.

2) On the way down, I had to stop visualizing my hands being "ahead" of the ball, but rather imagining my hands driving the ball down into the ground. That thought stopped me from flipping or overthinking my hands, just hands down into the ball.

I know it might not be much help, but hopefully some others will chime in with better advice.
[/quote]

Your first point here was really helpful to get me focused on the turn again. I have a problem swaying as well.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='lowndes' timestamp='1363309923' post='6614029']
I flip through impact and have tried and tried to hit the ball with forward shaft lean to no avail. Anyways just am really discouraged by not being able to get this fixed. Curious as to people who have successfully been cured (1) how long did it take and (2) what did you find most helpful?
[/quote]

You flip for a reason, you can't just force shaft lean.

Your backswing is too long, your upper body gets in front of the ball, your path is too far from the inside, your downswing is too narrow, shaft steepens too much in tranition, etc.

One or more of those things are happening and if you try and force shaft lean with one or more of those issues...well, then it would be something that is far worse than flipping. Death by magumbo.

[lowndes]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1363359960' post='6616777']
[quote name='lowndes' timestamp='1363309923' post='6614029']
I flip through impact and have tried and tried to hit the ball with forward shaft lean to no avail. Anyways just am really discouraged by not being able to get this fixed. Curious as to people who have successfully been cured (1) how long did it take and (2) what did you find most helpful?
[/quote]

You flip for a reason, you can't just force shaft lean.

Your backswing is too long, your upper body gets in front of the ball, your path is too far from the inside, your downswing is too narrow, shaft steepens too much in tranition, etc.

One or more of those things are happening and if you try and force shaft lean with one or more of those issues...well, then it would be something that is far worse than flipping. Death by magumbo.
[/quote]

Like the shanks!

[jbw749]

Learning how to release the clubhead is how I fixed my flip. I had to eliminate all pulling or tugging with the left side of the body towards the target. Had to learn how not to spin out my shoulders. Had to learn how not to force my hands towards the target, target line, the ball, or any aim points on the ground. Any attempt for me to maintain wrist angles created the opposite effect.
I learned how to hold my back to the target longer and absolutely release the club with my hands and arms as fast as possible to line it up. As my swing path improved and flexion/extension of the wrists became natural and the less flip I had.
For me max lag seems to be just a moment in time of a late line up and does not alway equal more clubhead speed. I paracticed right arm only swings at nauseom until I could hit them on demand about 2/3 my normal distance. In this journey I unknowingly became clubface aware which in itself fixed my flip more than anything, because there became a special relationship between my right palm and the clubface that I'm always aware of.

Just my story there's much more to it with the lower body, but you don't need to pivot to release the clubhead. Learn that first.

[Jericho]

Big time former flipper here (baseball in a previous life)

Trying to incorporate SF/CP release has done WONDERS. Here are some things/swing thoughts that have helped me (in no particular):

1. Practice pitching from dirt (That will show REAL quick)
2. Make a mental effort to think about where the club head is. Try and make that the last thing through the impact zone...only way to accomplish that is by pivoting.
3. Practice pitching/9-3 from dirt
4. The phrase "hold the angle" really helped. Take your back swing, try and maintain the angle (the "L") that your right arm and forearm create (bent right arm). You cant but by holding that angle it is impossible to flip
5. (While thinking about turning in a barrell instead of shifting laterally) Take a slow 1/8th backswing, hold, then try and square the face by just pivoting. You'll notice a few things- your right arm is bent at impact, forward shaft lean, shallow AOA, no flip and #6...
6. Swinging with your right side makes flipping so easy, however pulling with your left side makes holding the angle so easy and virtually eliminates flipping.
7. Practice pitching in the dirt by holding the angle and turning using your left side.
8. Enjoy the new divots you take

One last thing....even if you flip, something as simple as not shifting backwards in the backswing will greatly help with contact.

Good luck

[SunkTheBirdie]

[quote name='Rodabodem' timestamp='1363312541' post='6614361']
Keep your right hand on top of the shaft through impact. [/quote]
My body loves that tip.

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1363359960' post='6616777']
[size=4]You flip for a reason, you can't just force shaft lean.[/size]

Your backswing is too long, your upper body gets in front of the ball, your path is too far from the inside, your downswing is too narrow, shaft steepens too much in transition, etc.

One or more of those things are happening and if you try and force shaft lean with one or more of those issues...well, then it would be something that is far worse than flipping. Death by magumbo.
[/quote]
So true.
[url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=magumbo"]Magumbo[/url] ?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='lowndes' timestamp='1363360544' post='6616831']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1363359960' post='6616777']
[quote name='lowndes' timestamp='1363309923' post='6614029']
I flip through impact and have tried and tried to hit the ball with forward shaft lean to no avail. Anyways just am really discouraged by not being able to get this fixed. Curious as to people who have successfully been cured (1) how long did it take and (2) what did you find most helpful?
[/quote]

You flip for a reason, you can't just force shaft lean.

Your backswing is too long, your upper body gets in front of the ball, your path is too far from the inside, your downswing is too narrow, shaft steepens too much in tranition, etc.

One or more of those things are happening and if you try and force shaft lean with one or more of those issues...well, then it would be something that is far worse than flipping. Death by magumbo.
[/quote]

Like the shanks!
[/quote]

Exactly right. In many cases, flipping is the way the body avoids that.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1363366612' post='6617497']
[quote name='Rodabodem' timestamp='1363312541' post='6614361']
Keep your right hand on top of the shaft through impact. [/quote]
My body loves that tip.

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1363359960' post='6616777']
[size=4]You flip for a reason, you can't just force shaft lean.[/size]

Your backswing is too long, your upper body gets in front of the ball, your path is too far from the inside, your downswing is too narrow, shaft steepens too much in transition, etc.

One or more of those things are happening and if you try and force shaft lean with one or more of those issues...well, then it would be something that is far worse than flipping. Death by magumbo.
[/quote]
So true.
[url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=magumbo"]Magumbo[/url] ?
[/quote]

Do a google search for "death by magumbo"

Tasteless but hilarious.

[JMG_02]

Yep. In the middle of it right now. Lifelong flipper and about 4 months in to seeing SF. Its a tough one man...

For me personally, it is all in my transition. I tend to spin out a little, which steepens the shaft and so I start dumping the leverage early because as Geoff says, "You have to to hit the ball from where you are coming from!".

So I don't have a lot of "here is how I did it" tips, because I'm [i]right[/i] there with you man. I've definitely made some progress but still a ways to go.

[SunkTheBirdie]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1363366809' post='6617529']
[size=4]Do a google search for "death by magumbo"[/size]
[size=4]Tasteless but hilarious.[/size]
[/quote]
That's not a good position to be in.

[dmb316]

the idea of holding that right wrist (for righties) bent through impact will keep you from flipping. In order to make contact, it'll force you to pivot (if you're keeping your upper left arm close to your body (use SF's credit card or piece of nerf material way up in your armpit) and also keep you from backing out. start out by just chipping feeling like you're keeping that right wrist from straightening. work it up to a pitch, then 9-3. hold the angles and you won't flip. if you do, its like what the others have said.. something else is stopping or not performing an then your body is subconciously ensuring you make contact. just that one swing thought for me not only stopped my flip, but also took the left side of the course out. bonus.

[tsdean1980]

Most high handicappers have awful grips. I personally think that is one of the biggest reasons people flip. Most have a very weak left hand and a super strong right hand.

If you add forward shaft lean with this grip the ball is going 30 degrees right. So to square the face you have no choice but flip.

I found by adjusting the grip to a strong left hand and slightly weaker right you force forward shaft lean or your ball is going hard left.

Try a 4 knuckle grip at the range and see what happens, you can then weaken it a bit once you learn how to hit with forward shaft lean

[SunkTheBirdie]

[quote name='tsdean1980' timestamp='1363408115' post='6622023']
Most high handicappers have awful grips. I personally think that is one of the biggest reasons people flip. Most have a very weak left hand and a super strong right hand.

If you add forward shaft lean with this grip the ball is going 30 degrees right. So to square the face you have no choice but flip.

I found by adjusting the grip to a strong left hand and slightly weaker right you force forward shaft lean or your ball is going hard left.

Try a 4 knuckle grip at the range and see what happens, you can then weaken it a bit once you learn how to hit with forward shaft lean
[/quote]

Interesting points !
Can you start a thread with just this topic ?
I think it needs it's own topic