Reverse-K question and weight Slicefixers

[Peter_b]

Hi, I need some hel please. I am trying to get into a proper reverse K position at setup. There are several possibilities to get that hip to the left a bit. The easiest and nicest way in my opinion is to slightly kick in the right knee. Doing this the shoulders are slightly closed and the hip is slightly open to the target, quite equally. Is this correct? The weight would be 60% left.

I would also like to know about the weight on the foot. When barefooted I can fully lift my toes but not get on the heels. Is that correct? I ask this because I can not feel "weight under ancles" its too close to weight completely on the heels. If I am too forward I can not lift my toes.

[Peter_b]

Here is my swing meanwhile, is that Reverse K any good?



[center][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCzvm89yCxc&feature=youtu.be[/media][/center]

[Lefthook]

Bad camera angle but you appear to lean your upper body too much away from the target. Also, you transfer to the front foot too late and too slow, and you do not lead the down swing with hips.

[Timanator]

How can you tell from filming at that angle?

[Peter_b]

Thanks for the analysis lefthook, I will make some other angles tomorrow I just saw the SF videos and Geoff seems to take these weird angles. The cam angle is extra bad as the Iphone wasn’t upright in the holder, please tilt your head left I hope you allow me to ask a bit more.

- Leaning upper body away, I just kicked in the right knee a bit to reverse K. So it seems I exaggerate the reverse K? Maybe you tell me again after the face on and longline videos.

- transfer to the front foot too late and too slow. That’s great I felt my timing is bad as I begin to hurt my left hip if I dont extend the left leg fast. When should I do I the weight shift. I will if you tell me when. What second in the video or can you please make a screengrab of the position when the weight has to shift. That would be super helpful.

- you do not lead the down swing with hips. Yes, also aware of that, its still disconnected. I did the Dan Carraher connection drill for hours the last days to feel what it means to release the properly. I come from a 100% flipper and I am playing OK but I hate the powerless ball contact.
That I guess, is something I have to find out myself after doing Dan´s connection Drill? Or do you have something for me not to start with the arms? I tried all Whittaker drills but they dont really stop me from starting and swinging with the arms. I can do it hip high with the connection drill, feels awesome, love it. This doesn’t work for me with longer clubs and fully rotated.
Also related If you check my feet the right foot does not roll over and the right knee tends to break out. I have the feeling I am not pulling my left hip back but push the right hip to the front. I think this is called not into the left hip but around. I cant figure it out. What do you think?

- My weight is not on the heels enough?

[Lefthook]

Do the weight shift by the end of the back swing ... While the upper body is still bisywiththeback swing. If you have too much side tilt at address you may have problems getting properly over the front foot. You will still be able to load it but perhaps not as much as ideal.

Also we need to double check your setup because of the camera angle...

[Peter_b]

OK you do that weightshift by doing what? I can do that by swaying left but head moves, a bit more tilt only hip moves left, or not moving the weight so much left in the upswing almost keeping it left?

[Lefthook]

You need to establish and sustain a strong pull from the left side of the body. Can you do that?

[Peter_b]

I think yes, I can do that with the Carraher drill but first I need one answer as if I do the wrong thing it will be hard for you to spot. The pelvis can rotate in three axes. Around the left hipjoint around the left femur, around the right one, and it can helicopter when both femora twist agains each other. So to open the left hip I can either pull the left hip back (spinning around right femur) or I can move the right hip to the front (spinning around left femur). The third way would be to spin around the center of the pelvis like a grilled chicken. I think that is the right way.
All the world speaking of left pivot point makes the learner believe the left leg fixates and you turn around it. I think that’s why I spin out and early extend and make the david copperfield to get my hip through a space that is not there.
Am I right?

[Peter_b]

If you look at my video I clearly fixate my left femur and turn my whole pelvis around it. That is why you say its slow and cant lead. What do you say? Sounds plausible? And that is why i am not rolling to my right foot toe on the side. I think this explanation is simpler than putting rackets on the feet to make the foot roll left properly.

[Peter_b]

You need to establish and sustain a strong pull from the left side of the body. Can you do that?

 

Yes by rotation my pelvis around the pelvis center but not around left leg pivot point.

 

• getting from your right pivot point (right leg) to your left pivot point (left leg) allowing you to unwind aggressively
  

 

This has to be revised imho

 

This guy does not turn around a left or right leg pivotpoint.

 

 

In the above view you can see what his legs are doing they are turning the pelvis like that two sticks turn the helicopter rotorblades (swash plate).

 

[bph7]

[quote name='Peter_b' timestamp='1372978265' post='7389622']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1372972915' post='7389282']
You need to establish and sustain a strong pull from the left side of the body. Can you do that?
[/quote]

Yes by rotation my pelvis around the pelvis center but not around left leg pivot point.

[quote][list]
[*][size=2]getting from your right pivot point (right leg) to your left pivot point (left leg) allowing you to unwind aggressively [/size]
[/list]
[/quote]

This has to be revised imho

This guy does not turn around a left or right leg pivotpoint.

[/quote]

I'll just say that what you quoted is EXACTLY what Geoff teaches. To me, the video looks like the left leg is much more of the "center" of what he's turning around than the pelvis center. In any event, turning around the left pivot point is a cornerstone of the swing that Geoff teaches.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Peter_b' timestamp='1372975144' post='7389440']
I think yes, I can do that with the Carraher drill but first I need one answer as if I do the wrong thing it will be hard for you to spot. The pelvis can rotate in three axes. Around the left hipjoint around the left femur, around the right one, and it can helicopter when both femora twist agains each other. So to open the left hip I can either pull the left hip back (spinning around right femur) or I can move the right hip to the front (spinning around left femur). The third way would be to spin around the center of the pelvis like a grilled chicken. I think that is the right way.
All the world speaking of left pivot point makes the learner believe the left leg fixates and you turn around it. I think that’s why I spin out and early extend and make the david copperfield to get my hip through a space that is not there.
Am I right?
[/quote]
Most of the videos on Geoff's website were shot at angles because too many were being downloaded.
You are making things a bit too complicated,your anatomy is not quite correct and you are not quite understanding what Lefthook is saying
Your analogy to a helicopter in the picture is incorrect .There is no central axis to rotate or spin around ,so the pelvis can only pivot and not rotate or spin On the backswing the right femoral head and the right hip socket move to the rear and to the left .We see this as the right butt moving to the rear and to the left,but not in a perfect circle as it would be if it wererotating around a central axis .As this is happening the left semi-pelvis is pivoting forward and to the right,but the motion of the left pelvis should never be a focus going back .Going down this is basically reversed ,but only after some lateral motion is added to weight your left foot...
The right pivot point is rarely spoken in the Slicefixer swing ,mainly because it was established at setup.Slicefixer very much discourages lateral motion going back which would alter the right pivot point from the inside of your right foot Going down ,you need to establish your left pivot point over your left heel/ankle.Failure to do so results in a spin
Establishing your left pivot point requires lateral motion .This lateral motion can be easily seen with a driver and hard to see with a wedge.The reason why it is hard to see this lateral motion with a wedge is because after setting up in a reverseK ,there is very little distance to get to your left foot,so very little lateral motion is required
I have never heard Geoff refer to the pivot center,probably because it is not relevant to the golf swing

In the 9-3 drill there is no weight shift going back ;however there is weight transfer via your arms and club going back and down.There is a very small amount of weight shift going down as you move laterally to weight your left foot ,but since the lateral movement is so small any weight shift is also very small.Thus most golfers would perform the 9-3 drill better if they focused on just turning in a barrel and forgot about shifting weight at all.
Best way to get into a reversek is to kick out right knee in while at the same time bumping your left hip a little left.
Because of the angle of the video I can not determine lateral body movement,but you are not holding the angle of your right wrist to 3:00.Doing so is one of prime goals of this drill.

Just as general question .Whatever drills that you are currently using do not seem to be working.Why continue them?

[Peter_b]

[quote]Just as general question .Whatever drills that you are currently using do not seem to be working.Why continue them?
[/quote]

there is only one drill I try to do and that is the Carraher connection drill as my swing is very disconnected coming from an arm swing and flipping to the ball. Here it is [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/70325/getting-in-sync/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ting-in-sync/ [/url] I do not use other drills as I sadly do not learn anything from them. Maybe I can feel something but I learn through imitation, always did. Drills do not do any good to my swing. I need to understand and then I do it. The Carraher Drill I needed to feel a release as it should be without swinging the arms that was essential to feel what the goal is in the full swing. Only an arm swinger/flipper will understand what I am talking about. We actively end the lag to the ball and manipulate the club to the ball. The last sentence is very discouraging btw, That connection drill is very hard to do for me as a flipper, and if I can release it properly 5 times in a row you can see me smiling on the range.

[quote]I have never heard Geoff refer to the pivot center,probably because it is not relevant to the golf swing[/quote]

That does not make it automatically right, does it? I admire someone building a new swing method but even if the swing is correct, which it certainly is, the method of explaining it may be wrong.

[quote]You are making things a bit too complicated,your anatomy is not quite correct and you are not quite understanding what Lefthook is saying
Your analogy to a helicopter in the picture is incorrect .There is no central axis to rotate or spin around
[/quote]

I am trying to untie a knot here I got stuck in and I am sure others get stuck also. The anatomical way of the three possibilities to rotate a hip under the spine as I describe it are correct and so is the helicopter analogy. The pelvis vertically only truly rotates around the spine pivot/axis if you stand tall. If you take a femur in your hand of a skeleton and rotate the pelvis around it, the pelvis opens and closes like a swinging door around its hinges. I am sure you do not want SF students to do that. So its incorrect to talk about pivotpoints around the legs in my opinion. It confuses. Turning around the right leg and then the left leg would make you fall forward as you would swingdoor the hip to the front having the hinges on the right side and then attach hinges on the left side of the pelvis and swinging the door left.

looking at the pelvis only this is how it rotates in relation to the spine in the swing.
[url="http://de.clipdealer.com/video/media/1343012"]http://de.clipdealer...o/media/1343012[/url]

This is a hogan clip that again shows the swash plate rotation. If only the right side was coming through he would early extend which he doesn’t his pelvis stays at the same spot, no swingdoor hinging.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtYRiEmVsfY[/media]

[Peter_b]

Sorry for multiposting again but I have to add another clip of myself with a very bad hipmotion and I thank lefthook for making me realise this finally.
This is my old swing I want to get away from. You can clearly see how I fixate the left femur and swingdoor around it. This would be a left leg pivotpoint. Its wrong. You can scroll to 0:18

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLyzN0LBsxY[/media]

[Peter_b]

Here is what happens if you rotate around the left femur incorrectly and at the same time you block the rotation by not letting the right hip side swingdoor. I lock the swingdoor by not letting the right foot rotate to the toes directly. This was stupid of me doing and now I realise I could have hurt myself by locking my swingdoor. I get completely stuck there is no way to go for the hip other than stop rotating. I should not do a swingdoor rotation at all and that means I should not pivot around either leg alone but always both at the same time.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbmPXkHeu70[/media]

[Lefthook]

Pater_b

You seem to have a fair understandimg as far as the back swing is concerned. You can picture the hip rotation as a strictly rotary motion where the tailbone is the center.

Transition to down swing you can sort of back into your front foot before you really make an effort to turn through.

Even though it is somewhat correct to assume that you turn the hips the same way in the down swing -at least geometrically- I advice you to try to turn around the front leg. The thing is, it is very hard to get too much over the front foot and too soon. And your error is on the other side.

Also, monitor the weight balance under your feet. Inside right heel at the top and left heel in the finish

[Peter_b]

[quote]You can picture the hip rotation as a strictly rotary motion where the tailbone is the center.[/quote]

That was the answer I was looking for. Thanks.

[quote]in the down swing -at least geometrically- I advice you to try to turn around the front leg[/quote]

That is quite my problem, I completely lock down the left hip in space, I pin it to a point and then rotate around it like a little girl that whirls around the lantern pole. I know understand that I have to position the hip and there rotate around the spine. The left hip is not stationary, the femora will twist.

[quote]Inside right heel at the top and left heel in the finish[/quote]

I am aware of that and I was trying but the hip motion did not let me do that. I hope I can fix the hip rotation and then do what you say. Not an easy task, its quite burnt in over 30 years.

My problems with drills is, I would get a racket under my foot as I dont roll over the side of the foot and it would maybe force my hip in the right position. I would not have understood the problem though, as the right foot clearly is only the symptom and not the cause.

I can work with all this, thank you.

[Timanator]

A thread asking for validating your reverse K, yet no Face on shots?

[russc1597187869]

Peter
The sacroiliac joint connects the sacrum (bottom of the spine to the pelvis.It is capable of only VERY LIMITED motion ,so the pelvis can not rotate or spin around the spine,thus the helicopter analogy can not happen.What is the relevance of this discussion of anatomy or left or right pivot point to you .Nothing except that it seems to confuse you and detracts you from performing this drill correctly ,Forget about your preconceived ideas about how the body moves .Just setup with a tilted spine , windup around your tilted spine going back and unwind around your tilted spine going down .Swing in a barrel going back and swing in same barrel going down is the essence of 9-3 drill .Just add in holding the angle of the right wrist to 3:00 and you will have the 9-3 drill .
Try the below drill and you should feel the proper motion.(9-3 or 8-4 only) .Keep your upper arms close to your torso.The rhythmic back and forth motion will prevent you from thinking about what you should do.You can actually hit balls with this drill.by placing a ball down and hitting it every third or forth pass.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEM[/media]

[Peter_b]

russc I get you the whole leading hip will of course result by addition of the rotation of all vertebrae + the lumbosacral joint (forget the iliosacral joint it doesnt move at all), I still cant see why the helicopter model does not apply but OK lets drop it. You can see in the front video I just made for the K there is some bad stuff happening with my hip rotation. You will have to look up from the encyclopaedia to help me with that.

[url="http://youtu.be/JtGVxl1oowA"]http://youtu.be/JtGVxl1oowA[/url]

Lefthook, I have a terrible time getting the weight to the left ealier, I feel I can only do that by swaying and I know that is wrong. That is not a transition I am doing.

[Peter_b]

[url="http://youtu.be/DKT_JrLXT7o"]http://youtu.be/DKT_JrLXT7o[/url]

[bph7]

For the 9 to 3, you can start your weight on your left foot and keep it there. It will help get the correct impact feeling if you can't yet do the weight shift

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Peter_b' timestamp='1373040169' post='7393038']
russc I get you the whole leading hip will of course result by addition of the rotation of all vertebrae + the lumbosacral joint (forget the iliosacral joint it doesnt move at all), I still cant see why the helicopter model does not apply but OK lets drop it. You can see in the front video I just made for the K there is some bad stuff happening with my hip rotation. You will have to look up from the encyclopaedia to help me with that.

[media=]http://youtu.be/JtGVxl1oowA[/media]

Lefthook, I have a terrible time getting the weight to the left ealier, I feel I can only do that by swaying and I know that is wrong. That is not a transition I am doing.
[/quote]

First your are setting up with too much spine tilt(5-8 degrees is the suggested amount)
Second toe out your left foot 1/4 turn towards the target.this will make it easier to rotate.
Third you start out the backswing with a little lateral motion at the hips when there should no lateral motion at hips at all.Feel that your right shoulder/hip is turning in back of you(away from the target line) to initiate the backswing.
You also have a very handsy takeaway resulting in the club going too far inside to soon .Look at where the shaft is pointing at setup(front video).Approx to your outside left shoulder .then look at where it is pointing when the shaft is interesecting your right knee.Considerably outside your left shoulder.The shaft should point at approx the same place on your body by the end of the takeaway as it did at setup..The hands/wrists/forearms should not rotate during the takeaway;the hands should only hold onto the grip.
Going down there should be very little lateral motion .In your case , because you have excess lateral motion it would be better to think of no lateral motion at all.To start down feel that your left butt breaks a pane of glass that is placed a little behind it.

[Lefthook]

Peter_b,

Try to be literal about the reverse k. Use the mireor. Straight line left foot, left hip, left shoulder. more weight on front foot and taller right shoulder compared to video.The back foot ready to press forward already at address...sustain and increase that forward leg press in back swing.

[Peter_b]

bph7 that’s a relief I do that pitching, I just keep the weight left and its much easier to turn. I will do that. Do you see why I can not do the weight shift and turn?

russc I see I will kick in the right knee less, this will result in less spine tilt and I start the turn with rotation. I do start/initiate the backswing with a small weight step left, yes. I may add that I have to keep that right arm straight much longer.

[Peter_b]

Lefthook, want me to already do the back foot press or do the 9/3 with weight always left as bph7 suggests?

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Peter_b' timestamp='1373043841' post='7393316']
bph7 that’s a relief I do that pitching, I just keep the weight left and its much easier to turn. I will do that. Do you see why I can not do the weight shift and turn?

russc I see I will kick in the right knee less, this will result in less spine tilt and I start the turn with rotation. I do start/initiate the backswing with a small weight step left, yes. I may add that I have to keep that right arm straight much longer.
[/quote]
More of a question of eliminating the rotation of the hands /wrists and forearm during the takeaway than a straight right arm.

[Peter_b]

Yes I think that goes hand in hand as I drop and pull that folded elbow which results in the rotation inward. I think it wont rotate much if I keep the right arm straighter. That right arm fold is specially hard to overcome. I dont get feedback from the fold.

[russc1597187869]

Peter
You have to understand the purpose of lateral movement in the golf swing.Going back it happens in order to shift and load weight into the inside of your right foot..Because of the setup that Slicefixer suggests,the spine is already tilted 5-8 degrees right at a setup and the weight of your head also favors your right foot at setup.This will load weight towards your inner right foot at setup.Then all a golfer has to do is to windup around his tilted spine with no weight shift at all.An example of simplification
Going down a golfer need enough lateral weight movement with its resulting weight shift to weight his left foot or to get his left foot flat in transition.After this there should be no lateral movement and no weight shift ,but only rotation.If properly executed the Sliecfixer backwing will result in angles at the top that will make such a transition relatively easy.When setting up in the reversek weight is already primarily on your left foot at setup.Thus the need for only a very small amount of weight shift and lateral motion in transition.Another example of simplicity