Does your golf shop have a CT pendulum?

15th Club · July 5, 2013

In discussing several new-model drivers, and the selection of a new driver from all of the available choices, several GolfWRX members have asked about whether driver clubheads are actually maxed out for CT. And questioning, (rightly, I think) whether equipment manufacturers are actually maxing out their retail production in that dimension.

"CT," for those who might not immediately know it, is an abbreviation for "Characteristic Time." That measurement (to generalize for the sake of brevity) is roughly a measurement of how long a small pendulum weight can "stay" on a driver's clubface. The measurement is in microseconds and is performed with the assistance of a laptop. It is a measurement of the springlike effect of a driver's face.

Of course, we used to talk about "Coefficient of Restitution," abbreviated CoR or COR. That term of art has mostly been replaced by CT, as a result of the USGA's use of a newer and ingeniously simple device, namely the aforementioned pendulum tester.

The going rate for CT pendulum-testing devices is somewhere around $6500. That's an awful lot of money for a hobbist. But then again, a lot of golf hobbyists are buying golf club memberships for ten times that amount.

A CT testing pendulum is not a tool that any normal hobbyist would use very often. But it is a device that I'd sure use, if I had access, when picking out a new driver.

As a comparison, I don't trust the lofts and lies of my irons and wedges to any manufacturer, and certainly not after months of hitting balls with them. So I have a Mitchell machine; the simplest hobbyist-level M-1 machine. And I have utilized many Mitchell machines, at many different golf shops, before I splurged on one of my own.

So I am wondering whether any of the Golf WRX members know of any favored golf shops that have CT pendulum testers. It is a simple and quick test to employ, if one has the equipment. It could be a small profit center for a golf shop; charging a per-use fee to test driver heads. Ten bucks a test, on just two drivers a day, would pay for the machine in a year. CT testing has been with us for several years, and will be with us for many more years to come. Longer than virtually any driver currently in the bag of any GolfWRX member.

The real question I have is an easy one -- which golf shops in your area actually have a CT test-pendulum and will perform the test for customers?

CHARGERS · July 5, 2013

So if you ever found a driver with a higher than legal measured "CT", would you take it out of the bag???

Fourmyle of Ceres · July 5, 2013

So how does this work? Someone goes out and "invests" 6,500 bucks in a CT tester and needs to earn that money back somehow. The only possible business plan is to peddle some flavor of snake oil along the following lines...

1) Player brings in his driver. You tell him it is 1% under the legal limit for CT and offer to build him a max-CT driver to replace it.

2) Player wants a new driver. You have a couple of big-name driver heads lying around and you demonstrate that he doesn't want one of those OEM drivers that are under the limit. Instead he ought to let you build him a max-CT one out of some no-name component head he's never heard of that you've hand selected for max-CT.

3) You get your hands on a whole bunch of driver heads, find a couple that are 1% over the legal CT maximum and sell them at a markup to players who want an "edge" by getting that extra CoR behind their drives.

I truly can't see any useful-to-the-golfer info that you're going to provide by testing the CT of driver heads. Only angels dancing on the head of a pin differences that can be hyped as some sort of "edge". Or else nitpicky "blueprinting" type arguments about how crummy the big OEM equipment is spec'd.

nwarlen · July 5, 2013

One profitable method would be a simple "pay-for" plan, where a customer could for a small charge ($5) pay to have a club's CT tested. If they were going to buy a new club off the shelf they could pay that $5 to make sure that they got one at the limit. Would only really work in a large shop doing lots of sales, but might work.

Fourmyle of Ceres · July 5, 2013

[EDIT] Nevermind, comment withdrawn. It was never my intention to offend snake-oil sellers or swallowers in any way.

15th Club · July 5, 2013

[quote name='CHARGERS' timestamp='1373047680' post='7393662']
So if you ever found a driver with a higher than legal measured "CT", would you take it out of the bag???
[/quote]

Great question; the same question occurred to me.

15th Club · July 5, 2013

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1373047923' post='7393680']
So how does this work? Someone goes out and "invests" 6,500 bucks in a CT tester and needs to earn that money back somehow. The only possible business plan is to peddle some flavor of snake oil along the following lines...

1) Player brings in his driver. You tell him it is 1% under the legal limit for CT and offer to build him a max-CT driver to replace it.

2) Player wants a new driver. You have a couple of big-name driver heads lying around and you demonstrate that he doesn't want one of those OEM drivers that are under the limit. Instead he ought to let you build him a max-CT one out of some no-name component head he's never heard of that you've hand selected for max-CT.

3) You get your hands on a whole bunch of driver heads, find a couple that are 1% over the legal CT maximum and sell them at a markup to players who want an "edge" by getting that extra CoR behind their drives.

I truly can't see any useful-to-the-golfer info that you're going to provide by testing the CT of driver heads. Only angels dancing on the head of a pin differences that can be hyped as some sort of "edge". Or else nitpicky "blueprinting" type arguments about how crummy the big OEM equipment is spec'd.
[/quote]

In an era where OEM's are trying to sell drivers on "aerodynamics," I'd say that CT is considerably more important.

The alternative to testing, and knowing for sure, is to say, "I'd rather not know anything at all. I might have an untested retail driver that is actually hotter than spec. Or I might have a driver that is a CT dog. Best not to know."

15th Club · July 5, 2013

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1373048794' post='7393746']
But by offering that service you are implicitly endorsing the notion that a CT measurement of, say, 260 microseconds makes a driver better/longer/whatever to a CT measurement of, say, 255 microseconds. Which it is not.
[/quote]

That is an interesting claim. What makes you say that? All other things being equal, of course.

Pondy · July 5, 2013

By charging $5 to test a club, the retailer would have to test 1.300 clubs to break even on their $6,500 investment. I don't see anyone running out to buy a tester, or getting a test done on their club.

Pondy · July 5, 2013

Clearly, the price of a CT tester will have to come down to <$650 for there to be any chance of CT testing becoming mainstream. Otherwise, the economics just won't allow for any meaningful acceptance in the market.

15th Club · July 5, 2013

[quote name='Pondy' timestamp='1373052727' post='7394040']
By charging $5 to test a club, the retailer would have to test 1.300 clubs to break even on their $6,500 investment. I don't see anyone running out to buy a tester, or getting a test done on their club.
[/quote]

Sure. The same could be said of a Trackman, yes? Prohibitive for any single recreational player other than Kenny G, but useful for a specialty shop.

I should add; I put this onto the tour equipment board because of the high-end user idea. There might be a hundred reasons why a CT pendulum could be a headache for OEM's and their big-volume retailers.

And I'll add; we know what happens with tour clubs. They are all individually hand-tested. Presumably, maxed-out legal. And one of the tour vans' dirty/laughable little secrets is that there may be some (untested) retail heads on the market that are hotter than legal, just through manufacturing tolerances and chance.

HighSpeedScene · July 5, 2013

I think the only thing keeping the high end fitting shops from getting one is their inability to order close to ct limit heads...yes, people would pay more for the close to limit (limit plus tolerance allowed), but you don't know what you will get ordering from the OEM, so how many do they have to order and test to get one close to limit? Then, what do you do with the dogs? Sell them cheaper so your average margin ends up being the same? Then there's no ROI on the damn thing in the first place. I would argue the testing devalues the dogs more than it would appreciate the good ones in any event, so ends up being like a roll of the dice at best for the shop.

But its an interesting idea.

TomWishon · July 5, 2013

[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1373041037' post='7393110']
The going rate for CT pendulum-testing devices is [url="http://www.golfmechanix.com/Items.asp?pdts=07"]somewhere around $6500.[/url]

The real question I have is an easy one -- which golf shops in your area actually have a CT test-pendulum and will perform the test for customers?
[/quote]

The price of the unit is $7500 unless Tecnorama Taiwan, the company that makes the machines, happened to recently lower their price. Then you have to add on another $1500 paid to the USGA for a license to use it and to obtain the software to run it. So that's 9 grand in total. It's extremely unlikely any store selling golf clubs will have one because it is a tool designed for us only by golf club design companies and clubhead production factories.

It's not really portable either so if you had a spare 9 grand and bought one, it'd be a hassle to take it with you into a golf store to set it up. So to do what you want to do, will the store let you take 10-15 drivers with you to have them checked by someone with one of these units ? Doubtful. Plus I am not even sure the USGA would sell a license to anyone that was not able to prove they were a designer, golf company or head making factory.

But that's all pretty much a moot point because the USGA says in the license agreement that users of the CT machine may not use it to sell clubs or use it in marketing clubs. So technically if a shop had one and offered to sort for higher CT heads, if the USGA finds out they can revoke the license to use the machine and then you'd be sitting with a $7500 machine you can;t use. And since you'd have bought the machine itself from Tecnorama, the USGA would not refund your money for either the machine or the license and you'd be out 9 grand.

It's be cheaper for you to buy an ultrasonic thickness gauge for $3,000 to measure the face thickness within 0.001 mm to pick the one among the same model with the thinnest face. You can actually carry this unit into a store if you like because it is portable. Of course you can only compare face thickness of heads of the same model/brand because within different companies' driver models of different shape, size, face material, etc, their face thickness spec may be different. But among the inventory a store would have of the same model and brand of driver, choosing the one with the thinnest face would get you what you want.

Of course you might get a little different reaction from the store sales people once you wandered in, pulled out your ultrasonic gauge and started tearing the shrink wrap off the head to test the face thickness of the heads!! But that would work to do what you want to do as long as the store in your area had a golf number of the same driver models in stock to give you a large pool to check and compare.

Sorry but there is just not a practical way to do what you want to do unless one of your REAL good friends works for a golf company and would be willing to do it after hours without anyone seeing them do it. Shhhhhhhhhh in other words!

TOM

RJ1670 · July 5, 2013

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1373062234' post='7394780']
[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1373041037' post='7393110']
The going rate for CT pendulum-testing devices is [url="http://www.golfmechanix.com/Items.asp?pdts=07"]somewhere around $6500.[/url]

The real question I have is an easy one -- which golf shops in your area actually have a CT test-pendulum and will perform the test for customers?
[/quote]

The price of the unit is $7500 unless Tecnorama Taiwan, the company that makes the machines, happened to recently lower their price. Then you have to add on another $1500 paid to the USGA for a license to use it and to obtain the software to run it. So that's 9 grand in total. It's extremely unlikely any store selling golf clubs will have one because it is a tool designed for us only by golf club design companies and clubhead production factories.

It's not really portable either so if you had a spare 9 grand and bought one, it'd be a hassle to take it with you into a golf store to set it up. So to do what you want to do, will the store let you take 10-15 drivers with you to have them checked by someone with one of these units ? Doubtful. Plus I am not even sure the USGA would sell a license to anyone that was not able to prove they were a designer, golf company or head making factory.

But that's all pretty much a moot point because the USGA says in the license agreement that users of the CT machine may not use it to sell clubs or use it in marketing clubs. So technically if a shop had one and offered to sort for higher CT heads, if the USGA finds out they can revoke the license to use the machine and then you'd be sitting with a $7500 machine you can;t use. And since you'd have bought the machine itself from Tecnorama, the USGA would not refund your money for either the machine or the license and you'd be out 9 grand.

It's be cheaper for you to buy an ultrasonic thickness gauge for $3,000 to measure the face thickness within 0.001 mm to pick the one among the same model with the thinnest face. You can actually carry this unit into a store if you like because it is portable. Of course you can only compare face thickness of heads of the same model/brand because within different companies' driver models of different shape, size, face material, etc, their face thickness spec may be different. But among the inventory a store would have of the same model and brand of driver, choosing the one with the thinnest face would get you what you want.

Of course you might get a little different reaction from the store sales people once you wandered in, pulled out your ultrasonic gauge and started tearing the shrink wrap off the head to test the face thickness of the heads!! But that would work to do what you want to do as long as the store in your area had a golf number of the same driver models in stock to give you a large pool to check and compare.

Sorry but there is just not a practical way to do what you want to do unless one of your REAL good friends works for a golf company and would be willing to do it after hours without anyone seeing them do it. Shhhhhhhhhh in other words!

TOM
[/quote]

Good thing we have our good friend Tom here