Off the course is out of bounds, right?

[Jimmy Mac]

Playing with my brother-in-law a couple weeks ago. He hits his drive, it's flying pretty much parallel to the fence running around the outer edge of the course property. Looks like it'll be in play. When we get to the ball, it turns out that it's rolled just past the chainlink fence on the wrong side. He fished the ball back and takes a drop.

 

I say "Wait, that's OB, you have to go back to the tee."

 

He says "No, there's no white markers so it's not O.B. unless there's something on the card (local rule?) that says it is. I'm taking an unplayable lie"

 

I reply, "Isn't off-the-property pretty much the definition of O.B.?"

 

Hit hits, I shrug it off for fear of a family feud.

 

Who is right here? Thanks!

[4Wedges]

Definition seems pretty clear to me in the first sentence:

[b] Out of bounds’’ is beyond the boundaries of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] or any part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] so marked by the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i].
When [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] is defined by reference to stakes or a fence or as being beyond stakes or a fence, the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] line is determined by the nearest inside points at ground level of the stakes or fence posts (excluding angled supports). When both stakes and lines are used to indicate [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i], the stakes identify [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] and the lines define [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i]. When [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i]. The [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] line extends vertically upwards and downwards.
A ball is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] when all of it lies [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i]. A player may stand [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] to play a ball lying within bounds.
Objects defining [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] such as walls, fences, stakes and railings are not [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i] and are deemed to be fixed. Stakes identifying [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] are not [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i] and are deemed to be fixed.
[b]Note 1:[/b] Stakes or lines used to define [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] should be white.
[b]Note 2:[/b] A [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i] may make a Local Rule declaring stakes identifying but not defining [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] to be [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i].[/b]


Edit to get rid of bold.

[Jimmy Mac]

Seems clear to me as well.

His argument hinged on the [i]very[/i] literal taking of the second line... "When OOB is [b]defined [/b]by reference[b]...". [/b]According to him, if there isn't a specific provision within the local rules printed on the card, that [b]DEFINES[/b] that fence as being out of bounds, then it's just a fixed decorative element. Technically, the ball was still on club property.

To his credit, the card did define another section of the course to be an out of bounds area, but it doesn't come out and say "over the fence is always OB".

Is there an official written set of local rules that each course keeps? Of which the scorecard contains a subset? I would assume something in that would declare the outer boundaries.

It's just seems so obvious that off the course is out of bounds.

[Vindog]

What a maroon. If he was going to claim that, then why not just claim free relief from an obstruction, seeming as though he believes it to be NOT a boundary fence.

But I agree with you.

[Newby]

[quote name='Jimmy Mac' timestamp='1373569557' post='7433470']
Is there an official written set of local rules that each course keeps? Of which the scorecard contains a subset? I would assume something in that would declare the outer boundaries.

[/quote]

There should be.

[b] 33-2. The Course[/b]
[b] a. Defining Bounds and Margins[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]The [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] must define accurately:[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](i) the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] and [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i],[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](ii) the margins of [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Water-Hazard"]water hazards[/url][/i] and [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Lateral-Water-Hazard"]lateral water hazards[/url][/i],[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](iii)[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Ground-Under-Repair"]ground under repair[/url][/i], and[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](iv)[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i] and integral parts of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i].[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]In addition, the Committee should publish any additional Local Rules (eg stones in bunkers)[/size][/color]

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1373575757' post='7434260']
[quote name='Jimmy Mac' timestamp='1373569557' post='7433470']
Is there an official written set of local rules that each course keeps? Of which the scorecard contains a subset? I would assume something in that would declare the outer boundaries.

[/quote]

There should be.

[b] 33-2. The Course[/b]
[b] a. Defining Bounds and Margins[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]The [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] must define accurately:[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](i) the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] and [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i],[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](ii) the margins of [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Water-Hazard"]water hazards[/url][/i] and [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Lateral-Water-Hazard"]lateral water hazards[/url][/i],[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](iii)[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Ground-Under-Repair"]ground under repair[/url][/i], and[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](iv)[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i] and integral parts of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i].[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]In addition, the Committee should publish any additional Local Rules (eg stones in bunkers)[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Yes, it's up to the course/committee to define things clearly enough that there is no real question. It sounds to me like in this case it was a property boundary but to play the devil's advocate here, just the existence of a chain link fence itself doesn't necessarily mean it's a property boundary.

[Shambles]

A fence is a pretty clear marker to me. They do not put up fences just for the fun of it.


Shambles

[Veng]

Sounds like the committee has failed to do their job to me.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1373580413' post='7434864']
A fence is a pretty clear marker to me. They do not put up fences just for the fun of it.


Shambles
[/quote]

It's certainly a clear marker and has been put there for a reason but there are other reasons than marking the property boundary or even course boundaries. Just off the top of my head - maintenance equipment storage, cart path storage, above ground propane tanks, to keep wild animals away from sensitive areas, etc... I've even seen fencing used as a barrier to protect golfers on one tee box from approach shots to an adjacent green.

[Augster]

Without stakes or a local rule defining the fence as OB, it sounds like your brother should have gotten a free drop to me.

Even more in his favor is that the card included other spots on the course that are defined as OB, and those excluded this fence.

It is the committee's (or the course) job to properly define the golf course. If there is course property on the other side of the fence, not private property and not a public road etc., where the ball came to rest I think he should get free relief from the obstruction.

[sui generis]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1373588277' post='7435696']
Without stakes or a local rule defining the fence as OB, it sounds like your brother should have gotten a free drop to me.

Even more in his favor is that the card included other spots on the course that are defined as OB, and those excluded this fence.

It is the committee's (or the course) job to properly define the golf course. If there is course property on the other side of the fence, not private property and not a public road etc., where the ball came to rest I think he should get free relief from the obstruction.
[/quote]

Your argument certainly has merit. It might be interesting to have been there when, had there been one, a rules official had the player determine his nearest point of relief.

[4Wedges]

What course was this? My curiosity has the best of me and I'd like to call them and ask if the fence surrounding their golf course is the OB marker and if that is properly indicated anywhere as a local rule.

Otherwise it seems one would need a local property plat to play on some courses with fences or other improperly marked obstructions.

[Sawgrass]

I agree that a fence itself is not sufficient to identify OB. And that the course's committee failed to define things properly if they have no statement anywhere (on their website?) as to the status of the fence.

Further complicating matters is that sometimes public lands outside of a course's legal property are nevertheless used as part of the course. I'm not sure, but I think someone once told me that parts of St. Andrews are like that.

[QEight]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1373576540' post='7434368']
It sounds to me like in this case it was a property boundary but to play the devil's advocate here, just the existence of a chain link fence itself doesn't necessarily mean it's a property boundary.
[/quote]

In some cases recognising the property boundaries is easy, but in many cases that is really not clear without markings.

[amateur pro]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1373580413' post='7434864']
A fence is a pretty clear marker to me. They do not put up fences just for the fun of it.


Shambles
[/quote]

there was a 9ft wrought iron fence put up around one side of a course I play from time to time. rumor was it was to keep golfers from getting robbed...course is in a not so nice part of town, but its a very nice course!

[Shambles]

A fence, to me, is a boundary. If not for property, at least for the playing area. More especially so if it would take some effort to cross. The fence therefore marks the boundaries of the course, if not as club property, at least as playing area. The is to distinguish from a barrier erected as a discouragement of playing lines such as a row of trees or even nylon netting which, in short order can be walked around, or through but discourages the flight of a golf ball in that general direction to protect other players from harm or injury. There are, of course natural barriers such as a ravine or creek but a fence is man made and presumably permanent or reasonably so. It's erected to keep people out or keep people in but each to his side as is common in defining the property lines of private homes. It distinguishes. In some subdivisions in the States that distinction can be identified as the front lawn and that works to a fair degree because they have a reasonably orderly population with a conscientious awareness of property lines. Japan is even more orderly, as I hear. Their idea of a fence is one stone placed on top of another. In some Asian countries a 20 foot high wall is required.

It really should not be necessary to discuss the difference between a fence and a barrier.


Shambles

[2putttom]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1373628426' post='7438546']
A fence, to me, is a boundary. If not for property, at least for the playing area. More especially so if it would take some effort to cross. The fence therefore marks the boundaries of the course, if not as club property, at least as playing area. The is to distinguish from a barrier erected as a discouragement of playing lines such as a row of trees or even nylon netting which, in short order can be walked around, or through but discourages the flight of a golf ball in that general direction to protect other players from harm or injury. There are, of course natural barriers such as a ravine or creek but a fence is man made and presumably permanent or reasonably so. It's erected to keep people out or keep people in but each to his side as is common in defining the property lines of private homes. It distinguishes. In some subdivisions in the States that distinction can be identified as the front lawn and that works to a fair degree because they have a reasonably orderly population with a conscientious awareness of property lines. Japan is even more orderly, as I hear. Their idea of a fence is one stone placed on top of another. In some Asian countries a 20 foot high wall is required.

It really should not be necessary to discuss the difference between a fence and a barrier.


Shambles
[/quote]+1

[Sawgrass]

There is an important difference between a fence which is meant to prevent people from crossing and one that is specifically identified as an OB line. If it's an OB line, you don't get relief from the fence itself when your ball is in bounds and near it. The opposite is true if it is merely a fence. Even if this fence is near the edge of the property. Or, for instance, if the fence is separating the playing area from a driving range without the driving range being defined as OB.

The whole problem can be easily avoided if the course simply states that fences at the edges of the course property define out of bounds. It doesn't even require white paint! They can do it right on the scorecard. (Maybe instead of the popular and unnecessary scorecard space wasting statement that yellow stakes define water hazards and red stakes lateral water hazards, as the Rules already explicitly cover this.)

[ABgolfer2]

My course has a small horse pasture adjacent to the 9th fairway. A lot of older members swear it's not OB since its still property owned by the course owners.

[unaslob]

I have always been amazed what arguments could be solved by a could of cheap wooden stakes and a cheap bucket of paint!!!

At my local track the arguments can be legendary because of improperly marked OB, hazard ect...

I have theatened in the past to buy it myself and mark it late one night. Has anyone ever actually done that??

[Augster]

[quote name='unaslob' timestamp='1374016263' post='7468580']
I have always been amazed what arguments could be solved by a could of cheap wooden stakes and a cheap bucket of paint!!!

At my local track the arguments can be legendary because of improperly marked OB, hazard ect...

I have theatened in the past to buy it myself and mark it late one night. Has anyone ever actually done that??
[/quote]

Yes. I have. I haven't added stakes or anything, I've just "rearranged" the stakes in the dark of night to more truly reflect the hazard line and the OB lines on certain messed up parts of my course.

I also used to carry a red stake in my bag as a joke "just in case".