What to do with this swing? - Updated again Feb 15, 2020 - 6 years later

[WpgMike]

I realize this swing needs a significant amount of work. Any comments on it would be greatly appreciated, don't hold back. I'm wondering what is most pressing to work on.

 

I don't mind hitting fades but I'd like my downswing to be a little less steep. But comments on any part of the swing are welcomed.

 

 

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thanks

Mike

[HappyGolf]

Go to Google images and type in 'golf impact position' and go from there.

[MonteScheinblum]

Need to free up backswing hip turn a bit and improve your transition to something other than pulling the handle.

[WpgMike]

Thanks Monte. Yes, pulling the handle...bad. Can you give me a thought to work on besides pulling the handle? Do you mean I should be thinking about my right elbow perhaps?

[TheBigGun]

What are you working on at the moment? Have you ever had lessons?

The fact that you're videoing your swing suggests to me that you're working on something. I'm sure the real swing guru's will chirp in (Monte did) but you are currently standing bolt upright at impact.

Your swing looks very armsy to me. My advice would be to read the 9-3 thread, the arm swing illusion thread, watch some of Dan Whittaker and Monte's videos on Youtube and then look at what you're doing and how you feel you swing the club.

I'd personally reassess each stage - takeaway, pivot, transition, sequencing, impact - and put some real work in over the winter. I hope this doesn't sound overly critical or harsh, I've done it myself before. We're heading in to the winter where major changes can be made. I also say it as i don't think there's one piece of advice which is going to be a miracle cure for you.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='WpgMike' timestamp='1379690530' post='7883269']
Thanks Monte. Yes, pulling the handle...bad. Can you give me a thought to work on besides pulling the handle? Do you mean I should be thinking about my right elbow perhaps?
[/quote]

There are literally infinite ways to do it...and yes, leading with right elbow is a very good one.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1379690124' post='7883225']
Need to free up backswing hip turn a bit and improve your transition to something other than pulling the handle.
[/quote]

Monte, closer to ball, more bend at waist, and left shoulder more down in backswing...what do you think?

[WpgMike]

[quote name='TheBigGun' timestamp='1379690768' post='7883297']
What are you working on at the moment? Have you ever had lessons?

The fact that you're videoing your swing suggests to me that you're working on something. I'm sure the real swing guru's will chirp in (Monte did) but you are currently standing bolt upright at impact.

Your swing looks very armsy to me. My advice would be to read the 9-3 thread, the arm swing illusion thread, watch some of Dan Whittaker and Monte's videos on Youtube and then look at what you're doing and how you feel you swing the club.

I'd personally reassess each stage - takeaway, pivot, transition, sequencing, impact - and put some real work in over the winter. I hope this doesn't sound overly critical or harsh, I've done it myself before. We're heading in to the winter where major changes can be made. I also say it as i don't think there's one piece of advice which is going to be a miracle cure for you.
[/quote]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm working on getting less flat at the top and I think I've made some progress on that so far (believe it or not). Like I said I don't mind hitting fades but it seems like my downswing is too steep and too outside in. I feel (and what do I know) that if I was a little shallower and had a more square club path I'd hit the ball more solidly (instead of wiping the ball) and straighter (and eliminate my pull miss).

Mike

[WpgMike]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1379690824' post='7883299']
[quote name='WpgMike' timestamp='1379690530' post='7883269']
Thanks Monte. Yes, pulling the handle...bad. Can you give me a thought to work on besides pulling the handle? Do you mean I should be thinking about my right elbow perhaps?
[/quote]

There are literally infinite ways to do it...and yes, leading with right elbow is a very good one.
[/quote]

Thanks Monte, much appreciated.

[stAte Golfer]

I'm more interested in the indoor range...never seen one! And yes, leading with right elbow along with transition weight to front foot quicker should help..

[WpgMike]

Thanks State.

What do you guys think about also making sure I clear the hips? Would that help me drop the club before 'pulling the handle'?

[Jobu]

that's not a swing. start swinging and quit pulling.

[tommykrebs]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1379745714' post='7887687']
that's not a swing. start swinging and quit pulling.
[/quote]

Are you the author of the books "gain 50 yards to your driver o/n" and "how to fix your slice in 5 min" ?

@ WPGMike

A good feel is to hit the ball with the right shoulder. This will help you to understand how the DS and the impact position has to feel.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxQI4UKrxN8[/media]

In my swing I'm in a good position at the top but from there I was always steep. I thought I have to drop the club behind me or do other weird and complicated moves. That's not necessary. I can keep everything in place and turn back to the ball. (this requires a good BS) Key is to move the right shoulder towards the ball. If the right shoulder stop moving, like in my swing, my arms takes over and the swing gets steep and armsy.

He call this a straight line delivery path and IMO it has nothing to do with pulling the handle.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyOe1syuSLg[/media]

[WpgMike]

Tommy, that's very interesting. I'm going to work on driving my right shoulder to the inside of the ball, and leading with my right elbow. Thanks for taking the time to post that.

[Saltire]

Fix the posture first, and thats ironic coming from me!!

[WpgMike]

[quote name='Saltire' timestamp='1379880973' post='7893665']
Fix the posture first, and thats ironic coming from me!!
[/quote]

Can you elaborate? Thanks.

[Donny Ross]

You lose your posture coming into impact.

your left hip has to clear to the left, back behind you after getting into your left leg.

Your pelvis gets closer to the ball as your arms take over.

That breaks the kinematic sequence and from there all thats left is the leverage in your arms.

A waggle would help too.

[WpgMike]

[quote name='Donny Ross' timestamp='1379897585' post='7894899']
You lose your posture coming into impact.

your left hip has to clear to the left, back behind you after getting into your left leg.

Your pelvis gets closer to the ball as your arms take over.

That breaks the kinematic sequence and from there all thats left is the leverage in your arms.

A waggle would help too.
[/quote]

I see, that makes complete sense. I thought maybe he meant my set-up posture.

I used to waggle but I stopped it as it was encouraging me to flip the club inside at the takeaway...

[ksgolfcoach]

Posture too upright causing shoulders to turn to level. Club is way too laid off at top of the swing. Not enough turn going back. As laid off as your club is at the top you have to steepen the shaft. Any attempt to shallow it from that position will get you way to flat.

[WpgMike]

Thanks ksgolfcoach.

So I should have more bend at the hips in order to turn my shoulders at a better angle? Do you think this is why I'm so laid off at the top? It seems like I'm on a decent path during takeaway but then when my hands are waist high the clubhead is way too much behind me.

[WpgMike]

I've been working with Golftec on making some changes. I have to say that Golftec has been fantastic so far. Anyway, here is what my swing looks like now. I still pull the handle and have an early extension, but I think my backswing is looking more conventional (more or less on plane, no bow at the top). We've been working only on takeaway and backswing to this point.

Let me know what you think, no holds barred please!

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlC7cXf9KQ8[/media]

[WpgMike]

So here it is now. I worked pretty hard over the winter. Quite different, which I guess is good. I don't hit many pulls anymore. My two swing thoughts right now are: 1) Be gentle on the transition and use my hips to pull the arms. 2) Full release. I seem to be able to release the club quite hard without it going left. I'm always concerned I'm going to hit a pull hook with a full release but it never happens.

My miss is now a push or a push fade. I used to hit pulls and pull slices. I'm hitting about a club longer, but I really want to hit straighter. I'm shooting low to mid 80's from the middle tees but I'd like to break 80 consistently. I'm not actually scoring better with my new swing from the old one, which is a little frustrating.

Differences I can see from the first post are: Stronger grip, more hip bend, not crowding the ball, steeper backswing, right elbow not pinned to body, not as laid off, left wrist flat instead of bowed. not standing up (as much) at impact.

I'm looking for more criticism, don't hold back! Thanks.


[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO0xVVdlQ7k&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be[/url]

[Stevewmac]

Setup looks a lot better, you do need some forearm rotation on the backswing, you have very little as of now.

[Reasonability]

The difference in your last video and first is remarkable -- really good progress. Its probably time to post a front on view as well. From this angle, its starting to come down to your hip turn. Seeing front AND down-the-line will show the last few things needed for you,

Do you have a copy of Hogan's Five Lessons? You can download it on the web if not. You look as though your likely not quite getting the left hip moving back and away from the toe line to start your downswing transition. The Hogan book is a fairly quick read (a day at most) and there are few if any drills mentioned in it... the one he emphasizes is getting the lower body working WITH the arm flow -- starting with half swings to get the feel of it.

For me, that drill lead me to do this:

A) In the backswing, I felt the sternum just inside the right knee, which is just inside the right instep...That whole right knee and posture at the top is better analyzed from both the front and down-the-line. You may already be checking this in a mirror?
B) I learned to move right hip back from the toe line going back (and while learning I added a slight pause at the top) I felt down-force pressure into the right instep... Do happen to also feel that and do you feel down-force pressure into the right instep at the top?
C) THEN without pulling or tugging on the the club -- I began moving the left hip back a bit with the weight still on the back foot for a mere instant (which automatically gets the hands/arms unit started down. At first I would think of swinging the belly through the shot just to get the hips working. That combo of belly, down-force feeling, hips away from the toe line -- those sort of break-through for me.
D) That tiny move from the top was followed by two upcoming feelings -- One was getting the left hip moving away from the toe line and the other was getting my right side (elbow, hip, shoulder) fully through the shot in-posture. Your right hip goes more forward coming down and through... you will benefit by having it (the right hip) moving more along the toe line as the left hip rotates back and away from the toe line (rotation).

The down-force pressure into the lead foot AND the turn of the hips began to gel. This took a lot of reps and I started slowly with half swings. I imagined a person standing behind me with one hand on my belt line and the other between my shoulders, I wanted his hands to feel rotation but no sway or movement of that lower hand toward the ball.

I used a closet mirror (sometime front on and sometimes down the line) while doing this work. It looks to me like you're at that place in your swing where the fine tuning is about the hip turn so that you can maintain posture. Mirrors, Hogan's drill, half swings with a slight pause while learning, getting the belly to start the down-swing, feeling the down-force pressure, ALL this stuff happening in posture.... and it looks to me like you would be home free, Just keep maintaining your posture and staying tension free.

Within a few swings if you are genuinely feeling all this -- RUN DON'T WALK to Monte's zipper-away drill. If you aren't quite ready for that yet -- you can slow down for a few days or a week and build up to that drill with the plan above.

This is what worked for me when I was right about where you are. If it seems like all your hard work is being compromised with this... chuck it in the trash and forget it... no hard feelings. What worked for me may not help you but I though I'd reach out and share how I pushed it all to the finish line.

Best of luck!

EDIT: If you do post that face on or down the line views in future -- it might help if you wore a belt and tucked in shirt (to be a little picky)... the hip turn is easier to track that way.

[Guardian5]

Congratulations that is a big improvement.

Now it would be helpful for you to learn how the correct pivot and sequencing would lead you to not need to re-route the club. I only suggest this as clearly you have shown an aptitude for change and combine that with the skill to make the said change.
When players use this re-routing style it nearly always leads to early extension. The lack of a dynamic pivot in most cases diminishes accuracy and distance, though very low handicap golf can be played this way with the skill that you appear to be demonstrating.

Good luck and well done

[WpgMike]

Thankyou Reasonability for that thoughtful reply. It's a treasure of information which I will digest like a great meal! I've felt that my fixing my hip mechanics are the next step for me, so it's good to hear that confirmation from someone as knowledgeable as yourself.

I have read Five Lessons but it was about a year ago. I need to read it again. With regards to left hip going BACK and AWAY from the toe line at the transition, this sounds similar to the zipper away drill. Are they related? Is the left hip going away from the toe line simply as a result of the turning (rotation), or is there a different feeling I'm after?

A) Sternum/right instep - I'm going through Faldo's book right now and it struck me how much he turns onto his right side. From face on, there is a pronounced angle going away from the target; i.e. the line going from his left hip to his left shoulder. This is something I don't have in my swing right now. Once I get my weight onto my right instep I have trouble imagining how I cover the ball at impact, it seems like I'm too far behind the ball if I've turned my upper body so much away from the target (ie. sternum over right instep). I know this is the right position to be in though....

B) I don't actively feel this in my swing, but I've practiced it in the past. I move my weight to my right instep during the backswing and at the same time feel like I turn (rotate) my right hip back and towards the target. It feels like a very powerful position, but related to point A above, I struggle with how to properly transition from there so I don't actively force this feeling in my on-course swing.

C) Left hip - ..."getting the left hip moving away from the toe line..." Again, does the left hip simply rotate away from the toe line, or is it moving laterally somewhere as well? Perhaps to the target? ie. A bump? This is where I'm really unsure.

D) Here I think you're referring to me losing my tush line, correct? Early extending, humping the goat? This is a big one for me as well and I'm glad you confirmed that. Is this where it's helpful to imagine a hand behind me holding my belt so there is no movement toward the ball (or laterally)?

"The down-force pressure into the lead foot AND the turn of the hips began to gel." You mean pressure into the back foot, correct? Just want to be sure.

Thanks again for the response. Figuring out the swing has been like unlocking a mystery one piece at a time, but I know I have a ways to go. I'll try to get a face on video done.

Mike

[WpgMike]

Thanks Ian 72. As I said to reasonability, it's good to hear confirmation of what I need to work on.

thanks
Mike

[Reasonability]

[quote name='WpgMike' timestamp='1402768348' post='9495075']
Thankyou Reasonability for that thoughtful reply. It's a treasure of information which I will digest like a great meal! I've felt that my fixing my hip mechanics are the next step for me, so it's good to hear that confirmation from someone as knowledgeable as yourself.

I have read Five Lessons but it was about a year ago. I need to read it again. With regards to left hip going BACK and AWAY from the toe line at the transition, this sounds similar to the zipper away drill. Are they related?

[color=#B22222]YES BUT... It may prove fairly difficult to start with the zipper away until first getting comfortable with the feeling of a coil. In other words the zipper has to go "away" from the right starting point. [/color]

Is the left hip going away from the toe line simply as a result of the turning (rotation), or is there a different feeling I'm after?

[color=#B22222]As you move from takeaway to the top there is a shoulder turn which moves the "set" of your hands/arms/club "unit". You seem to demonstrate that motion well. As that backswing motion occurs, the hips should accept their rotation from that upper body turn. The feeling is that the right knee is fairly stable in terms of it's flex, and the posture from setup is remaining stable. The right hip (by rotating) is allowed to move back from the toe-line versus being fixed/locked under the shoulder turn. When doing the Hogan drill and practicing it may at first "feel" like the right hip pocket feels heavier and being pulled back from the toe line.[/color]

A) Sternum/right instep - I'm going through Faldo's book right now and it struck me how much he turns onto his right side. From face on, there is a pronounced angle going away from the target; i.e. theline going from his left hip to his left shoulder. This is something I don't have in my swing right now. Once I get my weight onto my right instep I have trouble imagining how I cover the ball at impact, it seems like I'm too far behind the ball if I've turned my upper body so much away from the target (ie. sternum over right instep). I know this is the right position to be in though....

[color=#B22222]What you are seeing is the result of his upper body spine tilt away from the target at setup (reverse K). Notice his hips are set just a touch closer to the target than his sternum. Think of that imaginary person behind him with a hand on the belt and the other hand between his shoulders...the hand between the shoulders is a little away from the target compared to the hand on the belt. So when he swings to the top rotationally around his setup spine angles, the upper and lower "hands" end up right about where they started. Faldo didn't make a conscious effort purposefully bend himself into that posture -- it just happened as he turned around the "axel" of his setup spine angles.[/color]

B) I don't actively feel this in my swing, but I've practiced it in the past. I move my weight to my right instep during the backswing and at the same time feel like I turn my right hip back and towards the target. It feels like a very powerful position, but related to point A above, I struggle with how to properly transition from there so I don't actively force this feeling in my on-course swing.

[color=#B22222]I understand. This will come as you develop the feel for a little deeper right hip turn going back to get into that coil. Once you're there the whole notion will have more of a natural flow with practice. Right now it probably feels powerful but a little forces and unnatural.[/color]

C) Left hip - ..."getting the left hip moving away from the toe line..." Again, does the left hip simply rotate away from the toe line, or is it moving laterally somewhere as well? Perhaps to the target? ie. A bump? This is where I'm really unsure.

[color=#B22222]This will probably come gradually once you're feeling really good about your right hip and overall position at the top. You will likely feel that for a mere moment (which is why I suggest a slight pause at the top while learning), the first move is a slight bump with the idea of also moving the left hip back from the toe line too. The actual shift of weight (down-force pressure) will start off with that pressure into the right foot during that mere instant, and then the right hip (and your right elbow/shoulder will feel like it can move more along the toe line. This in effect is "clearing" the hips. As the left moves back while bumping laterally -- room is cleared for the right side (hips and all) to move through the shot without losing your posture. The trick to it is taking your time and remembering those imaginary hands on your back.... you don't want them sliding around and leaning more toward the ball than they were during your set up.[/color]

D) Here I think you're referring to me losing my tush line, correct? Early extending, humping the goat? This is a big one for me as well and I'm glad you confirmed that. Is this where it's helpful to imagine a hand behind me holding my belt so there is no movement toward the ball (or laterally)?

[color=#B22222]YES - In my case I think of those imaginary hands feeling me rotate without sliding and moving into the goat. If it helps you to imagine someone actually holding your belt -- that may work just as well.[/color]

"The down-force pressure into the lead foot AND the turn of the hips began to gel." You mean pressure into the back foot, correct? Just want to be sure.

[color=#B22222]YES - I feel it going back through the right instep -- growing and then maxed at the top rather than hurried and slammed -- then I feel it also in the left foot growing and maxed out through impact. For me... there is that mere instant just after the slight pause -- where it stays on the right instep just long enough to get that hands/arms "unit" to respond... then its all about the 'stuff' written about above. So I feel that down through both feet as they take turns. This whole thing is how I personally got the real feeling of the terms "coil", "transition", and swing from the "ground up". This is why it looks to me like you're so close, and why I think that old copy of the Hogan book, mirror work, and front on views, well help you nail down the fine tuning.,, and also why once you know you're getting close -- Monte's zipper away drill will start making all the sense in the world to you. There will come an "I GET IT" moment for sure.[/color]

Thanks again for the response. Figuring out the swing has been like unlocking a mystery one piece at a time, but I know I have a ways to go. I'll try to get a face on video done.

[color=#B22222]Excellent -- Best of luck.[/color]

Mike
[/quote]

[WpgMike]

Thanks. I'm slowly starting to get it. Even if the shots on the range aren't always what I'm looking for, the feel of my swing is starting to match what I've had in my head. The rotation to the right, NOT rushing the transition, using my lower body instead of my arms and letting the club release (ie. allowing arms to rotate) at impact. I'll keep working hard at it.

[Reasonability]

Let me throw this out there too, Mike...

You have done SO much to improve your posture at set-up. This is you chance to bring meaning to WHY your setup has a purpose. Try keeping the tension out, the grip pressure even and consistent, and let your release be an unhinging action. As goes those imaginary hands behind you -- so goes the preservation of your setup spine angles -- and so goes the goat.

Imagine the upper hand slips really hard to your right while the lower hand stays fixed at the top -- you will end up "stuck". Imagine the lower hand slides laterally through impact while the upper hand tries to hang back -- you will end up blocking shots and flipping the hands. If the lower hand drives toward the ball -- you and the goat just became more than friends.

I'm sure you will get to it all... with your work ethic about it... you will be just fine.