Better Players "Rolling the Ball in the Fairway". What's the Point?

[acquadiice]

no thanks, will never do that. not even casual rounds.

what i am guilty of is if its in a patch near a tree that looks suspect (roots) - rather not have a broke club/wrist etc. in a casual round.

[nbg352]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1381453549' post='7984349']
At my home club we play by the rules, winter rules then we move it, summer rules we don't....with no exceptions really as guys pretty much self police.

If i'm at a public course i'll decide based on the setup. I don't believe golf was meant to be played with mudballs on 50% of your shots that land in the fairway. If conditions are bad i'll clean it
[/quote]
That's Canada golf!

[Froth]

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1381505179' post='7986989']
Not sure why it would end badly but ok. My point is the way some of these posts have come off is that moving the ball is cheating. OK but you also just said if a committee or course has a local rule it is not cheating. So if you play in a 4ball tournament that allows you to move the ball in the fairway are you going to move it or are you going to play it down?? Is it cheating if my course has a local rule allowing you to roll the ball??

Yes I know the rule says the lie must not improve except otherwise provided by the rules. So sure, moving the ball is cheating. But that is why I am asking about a clubs local rules. Is it cheating if the club or pro or people in the same game say to roll the ball??
[/quote]
If the club has an established local rule that allows the ball to be moved, then I completely condone moving the ball as you see fit so long as it's not moved from say, first cut of rough to fairway, or fairway to rough, etc etc. However, it is also down to personal preference of the player. When I play in a best ball scramble and my ball is selected as the ball to be played for that shot, I prefer to play it as it lies as that is simply my nature of playing the game. I do not however have any problem with someone picking the selected ball up if they wish and replacing it as they see fit, so long as they are not going from rough to fairway as I stated before. I have played lift/clean/place in tournaments before, and some people will lift and clean a ball that has the teeniest minute amount of mud or dirt on it and that is their choice to do so, I generally only lift/clean/place if there is a substantial amount of mud/dirt on the ball in those situations. Though there are times where I just like hitting a mud ball to see what happens with the shot, I'm weird that way.

It's refreshing to have an educated conversation of this level with another member on a touchy subject without it becoming heated, I applaud your response to mine. Clear, well thought out and well worded. Cheers!

Edit: My issue only lies with the people that improve on an already decent lie when there is no local rule in place, or do it to get around a tree, move from rough to fairway, move the ball closer to the hole, etc etc. I have seen it way too much over my many years playing, the most annoying to me is the person who has basically a perfect lie and will move the ball to a slightly raised tuft of grass to act like a miniature tee for their shot. I have played with people who do it on EVERY shot, and it adds time to the round while they look for the ideal place to "prop" their ball up. I recently played with a person who would stomp down tall grass behind his ball in the rough every single time so that no grass got between his ball and club face, then he would pick the ball up and twist the grass together ahead of the stomped down grass and prop the ball up on it. That kind of stuff is what bothers me to no end.

[blaird]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1381508770' post='7987327']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1381505179' post='7986989']
Not sure why it would end badly but ok. My point is the way some of these posts have come off is that moving the ball is cheating. OK but you also just said if a committee or course has a local rule it is not cheating. So if you play in a 4ball tournament that allows you to move the ball in the fairway are you going to move it or are you going to play it down?? Is it cheating if my course has a local rule allowing you to roll the ball??

Yes I know the rule says the lie must not improve except otherwise provided by the rules. So sure, moving the ball is cheating. But that is why I am asking about a clubs local rules. Is it cheating if the club or pro or people in the same game say to roll the ball??
[/quote]
If the club has an established local rule that allows the ball to be moved, then I completely condone moving the ball as you see fit so long as it's not moved from say, first cut of rough to fairway, or fairway to rough, etc etc. However, it is also down to personal preference of the player. When I play in a best ball scramble and my ball is selected as the ball to be played for that shot, I prefer to play it as it lies as that is simply my nature of playing the game. I do not however have any problem with someone picking the selected ball up if they wish and replacing it as they see fit, so long as they are not going from rough to fairway as I stated before. I have played lift/clean/place in tournaments before, and some people will lift and clean a ball that has the teeniest minute amount of mud or dirt on it and that is their choice to do so, I generally only lift/clean/place if there is a substantial amount of mud/dirt on the ball in those situations. Though there are times where I just like hitting a mud ball to see what happens with the shot, I'm weird that way.

It's refreshing to have an educated conversation of this level with another member on a touchy subject without it becoming heated, I applaud your response to mine. Clear, well thought out and well worded. Cheers!

Edit: My issue only lies with the people that improve on an already decent lie when there is no local rule in place, or do it to get around a tree, move from rough to fairway, move the ball closer to the hole, etc etc. I have seen it way too much over my many years playing, the most annoying to me is the person who has basically a perfect lie and will move the ball to a slightly raised tuft of grass to act like a miniature tee for their shot. I have played with people who do it on EVERY shot, and it adds time to the round while they look for the ideal place to "prop" their ball up. I recently played with a person who would stomp down tall grass behind his ball in the rough every single time so that no grass got between his ball and club face, then he would pick the ball up and twist the grass together ahead of the stomped down grass and prop the ball up on it. That kind of stuff is what bothers me to no end.
[/quote]

I agree. I love a good debate especially with people that dont resort to name calling when someone doesnt agree with them. I to agree with what you are saying. It is a preference I guess. I have no problem playing any way my group wants to play. Hell if they want to add a throw in there then fine by me as long as everyone I am playing against plays by the same rules.

Haha and yes. I believe we all have that friend that will pop up grass with the toe of the club to get a better lie. Those are the ones you can ask if "they need a tee".

I just do not think it is fair to call/label someone a cheater because they bump the ball around or play gimme's in their regular game. To me a cheater is someone that makes a 5 and marks down a 4. Someone who bumps the ball in a tournament when they are supposed to be playing it down. Someone who grounds a club in the hazard or pulls things away in a hazard. That is what I define as a cheater.

[MountainKing]

I'm still amused at how serious some folks take this. I know what I do, I know what my playing partners do and we're all okay with the different approaches that we take to the game. I prefer to play more serious, play every shot and hole out every putt and they don't care. One of the guys in my group prefers to fluff his lies, use a foot wedge here and there, take some mulligans and give himself some putts that he probably should be putting and I don't care. We both enjoy getting out and playing the game, there's nothing on the line when I play with friends..not even bragging rights because our scores are generally not in the same decade. If you're playing a tournament then you play by the rules, if your posting a score you should play by the rules but then again in this case you're only hurting yourself by possibly giving yourself a lower than deserved handicap, if you're just playing for some social and fun who cares how you play as long as you are happy with how you are playing the ball. This sport means different things to everybody that plays it!

[mke1078]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1381490927' post='7985901']
Note: Everyone that does this generally explains "their own" reasoning behind doing it, however they never seem to just tell the honest truth. Just say you want to hit a good lie every time, that's all you are doing. In the end, you will have cheated yourself out of the joys of golf. One of my most enjoyable shots is hitting a ball exactly how I picture it out of a horrible, terrible, massively bad lie.

Last time I checked, the rules are the rules. The odd thing I find with people that do this is that half of them wouldn't dare play with an illegal ball, or an illegal club...but they'll roll the ball and make their lie nice and clean before hitting a shot? I don't get it at all. Why the hell would I want to practice off a perfect lie, I want to practice playing golf the way it's meant to be played - By the rules.

Me, I only touch my golf ball to A- Put it on a tee, B- Mark it on the green, C- Pick it up out of the hole. Unless it's lift/clean/place or winter rules as stipulated by the course, I don't ever ever ever touch the ball with my hands or roll it onto a better lie with a club, that's a penalty end of story. There are days where I feel like I am the only person on the entire course that plays this way. I punch out from under trees, I claim unplayable lie and take the stroke for it, even by myself. At the end of the day, you can play how you want. Hell, I give myself bad lies on the range. How else am I supposed to be ready for when my ball rolls into a divot, or up against a tree root?

You can play golf however you want, but if you're having to explain yourself for the reason you adjust your lie...then you already know you're doing something that isn't right. Where do you draw the line if you're just going to have perfect lies the entire round? Why don't you just drive out to the spot in the fairway where you think you'll hit your tee shot and place the ball there? You are essentially doing exactly that. The ball must be played as it lies, this was one of the first rules of golf! If you alter how it lies constantly then you're not [b]playing[/b] golf...You're [b]cheating[/b] at golf and will lie to yourself about it at the end of the round.
[/quote]

Let me state from the beginning that we play the ball down unless instructed otherwise from the golf committee.

Your statement has got to be the most shortsighted. " In the end, you will have cheated yourself out of the joys of golf." Really??? There are people out there that don't take it as seriously as you and are out there for pure enjoyment. Get off of your high horse telling people how they have to enjoy golf.

[mjtoal]

[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1381501540' post='7986619']
[quote name='mjtoal' timestamp='1381498770' post='7986375']
This is a parochial American issue. I have been amazed at the willingness of players in the US to roll the ball into a good lie and then at the end of the round say their score would go towards their handicap.

Real golfers of any handicap don't improve their lie unless winter or other weather-related rules specifically allow it. End of story.
[/quote]

There is no way you know what parochial means based on how you used it. Get a dictionary out before you try to look like a smart guy. I hate to break it to everyone here who is a "serious" golfer but golf is a casual social thing for 99 percent of people and if you aren't getting paid to do it you should lighten up realize you aren't that important. If you are playing a tournament of any kind obviously you play by the rules to a T, but get off your high horse the guy moving his ball obviously doesn't care so why should you. Threads like this boggle my mind.
[/quote]

Perhaps it doesn't take a great deal to boggle it.

Anyone marking a score for handicap who moves their ball as discussed is cheating. If you can't understand something as simple as that, there is not much point discussing the matter further with you.

The use of parochial was to suggest this was a habit much more commonly practised in the US of A. I have played golf in many countries and quite a few US states and I stand by the assertion that this is an American issue.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

[quote name='mjtoal' timestamp='1381516671' post='7988015']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1381501540' post='7986619']
[quote name='mjtoal' timestamp='1381498770' post='7986375']
This is a parochial American issue. I have been amazed at the willingness of players in the US to roll the ball into a good lie and then at the end of the round say their score would go towards their handicap.

Real golfers of any handicap don't improve their lie unless winter or other weather-related rules specifically allow it. End of story.
[/quote]

There is no way you know what parochial means based on how you used it. Get a dictionary out before you try to look like a smart guy. I hate to break it to everyone here who is a "serious" golfer but golf is a casual social thing for 99 percent of people and if you aren't getting paid to do it you should lighten up realize you aren't that important. If you are playing a tournament of any kind obviously you play by the rules to a T, but get off your high horse the guy moving his ball obviously doesn't care so why should you. Threads like this boggle my mind.
[/quote]

Perhaps it doesn't take a great deal to boggle it.

Anyone marking a score for handicap who moves their ball as discussed is cheating. If you can't understand something as simple as that, there is not much point discussing the matter further with you.
[/quote]

This is true. If you sign up to participate in a system with certain rules and then routinely, without a second thought violate those rules while continuing in the system, that is cheating. It may be "cheating yourself" or cheating an opponent if you have one. But one way or the other it's the very situation that the word "cheating" is meant to describe.

[Froth]

[quote name='mke1078' timestamp='1381514285' post='7987785']
Your statement has got to be the most shortsighted. " In the end, you will have cheated yourself out of the joys of golf." Really??? There are people out there that don't take it as seriously as you and are out there for pure enjoyment. Get off of your high horse telling people how they have to enjoy golf.
[/quote]
Yes, Really. My point with the statement you quoted is that It is impossible to tell how the lie your ball is in will turn out for the shot if you never hit it out of that lie in the first place, so in my opinion...you could potentially be cheating yourself out of a truly spectacular shot that you could remember for the rest of your life.

If you modify the lie in a round where you compute a handicap, you could potentially also be cheating yourself out of an extra stroke or two that should actually be given to you during a competition. If your adjusted lie results in a much better shot and a Birdie rather than a Bogey...there's a HUGE potential to be cheating yourself. Sure, a low handicap sounds good when you tell someone what it is but it could very much hurt you and your enjoyment of the game when you should be getting two strokes per side but thanks to adjusting a lie on the course you now get zero strokes because of a lower handicap that was created during rounds that did not follow the rules of the game.

Edit: Now, if no handicap is being computed and the person wants to play their own way for sheer fun and truly enjoys it. More power to them. No where during my post do I state that they [i]must[/i] play a certain way to enjoy golf. You note that in the post you quoted, I state "At the end of the day, you can play however you want". Oh, and I do not ride horses.

[italianstallion]

Interesting discussion here.

I play the ball down, only because I'm even too lazy to take my cubhead and move it. My group of 12 or so guys every weekend typically play the ball up, but I really don't care if they give themselves a lie or not. I'll play my ball you guys play yours...we'll add the strokes up at the end and the losers buy the beers, I don't care one bit.

I played a round with a few members on here a few weeks ago at a pretty well maintained course on Long Island. We decided on the first tee to play it down. Fast forward to 16 and my drive is right in the middle of the only 3 foot by 3 foot patch on the course where there was water damage in the fairway. I asked my playing partners if I could get relief, they polietly said no. I hit a pretty spectacular hybrid from that lie and made par. Didn't hurt to ask in that situation, and not getting relief made me focus more on the shot.

End story: I really don't care. I don't know why I posted this.

[atlanta golfer]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1381498172' post='7986321']
All winter long the guys in the morning dogfight at my club will roll the ball in the fairway. I don't like it, most situations where you REALLY need to move the ball (i.e. it's sitting in a puddle in the middle of the fairway because it rained the night before) is covered by a casual water drop.

None the less, the guys on my team will tend to b**** if I don't roll the ball because my score counts toward the team. So I compromise. In a really nasty situation where I'm going to catch grief for trying to hit the ball out of a deep divot I will move it to avoid the aggro. But I do not have any interest in just rolling the ball on every shot.

And I've noticed quite a few players in that dogfight quietly follow the same approach. If they need to "cheat" a couple times a round to grease the social mechanics of blind draw teams they'll do it. But the true normative behavior is to take a pass on the roll-every-ball-from-November-to-March nonsense.
[/quote]

Our dogfight group adopted a standard - year round - if it is cart path only as declared by the club due to wet conditions, then for those holes where it is cart path only, you can lift clean and place if in the fairway. Otherwise, play it down.

[putts4bogey]

It must be difficult to play by the rules when there are thousands of excuses not to.

[jlt73]

I only roll my ball into divots or bad lies. Sometimes i even step on my ball to get it stuck in the ground.

[JimNewton]

Yeah I personally even enjoy the challenge of a bad lie. It doesn't always work out result wise, but when it does it makes a good shot feel even sweeter. Just t[size=4]oday I was semi buried, went down [i]hard[/i] at it with the 5 iron, and nutted it to the right side of the green. I could have rolled it and maybe got it 5 feet closer but I wouldn't be remembering that one right now. The difficulty factor makes it memorable.[/size]

[airjammer]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1381460918' post='7985081']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1381456012' post='7984615']
If you hit the the ball in the "fair"way you should get a good lie. That is how we play it in our casual games.
[/quote]

If you hit the ball into the rough, do you insure you have a "rough" lie?
[/quote]

If you hit in the crap you get whatever you get...if the fairway wasn't meant to give you a advantage by being in it why mow it in the first place?

[agray94]

I do different things in different rounds. A lot of times I will be working on specific things. If I am working on my approaches, dialing in distances or like currently I am trying to work the ball with a draw. It doesn't do me much good to hit out of a crappy lie, or from behind a tree...whatever.
I also will play tournament rules golf and play everything.
Lots of times I'll work on shots I might not play in a competitive round..just to get practice on them
I really don't even keep score. I usually track fairways, GIR and putts

the beauty of this game is you don't have to have 4 guys playing the same way...also not everyone is concerned with their handicap or playing like it's a tourney

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='mjtoal' timestamp='1381498770' post='7986375']
This is a parochial American issue. I have been amazed at the willingness of players in the US to roll the ball into a good lie and then at the end of the round say their score would go towards their handicap.

Real golfers of any handicap don't improve their lie unless winter or other weather-related rules specifically allow it. End of story.
[/quote]

There are public clubs around here that don't post whether or not its summer or winter rules. I mentioned on page 1 at my home club we always play according to course rules depending on what they are.

If i'm playing a public course that doesn't declare, i'll decide based on what i think it would be. i don't feel bad about doing that

I don't like mudballs though, i know that's "part of the game", but if i hit it in the fairway and then the ball has a pound of mud on it that sends the ball OB when i hit it....no fun

[MadGolfer76]

Part of playing golf is playing by the rules. I don't care what approximation of golf people choose to play in their own time, but if they are playing with me I won't sign a card for them.

[MelloYello]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1381498868' post='7986383']
The point is not to hammer those that violate rules - the point from my perspective is simple acknowledgement of the cheating. I don't care if people cheat and therefore cheat themselves - competitively, it actually gives me an advantage in events.

But its just odious to me when people ty to justify it and say 'well, its not cheating because...". Just say it. You intentionally violate the rules to give yourself an advantage. Don't justify. Don't equivocate. You roll it. OK. But don't say its not an intentional circumvention of the rules designed to make your score better.

Also, LCP is not cheating as it is an optional local rule. I don't like it necessarily, and I think it shouldn't be used except in very rare situations, but if the committee has enacted the local rule, there is no ROG issue. My point about LCP is that committees should not enact it - not that it is cheating.
[/quote]


For the most part, I'd agree with you. I have to admit, I'm so unfamiliar with this concept I didn't know what this thread was about until I read half of the 1st page of replies. I had no concept of this 'moving the ball on every shot' stuff.

Weird habit, I'll admit. Almost OCD.


Anyhow, I'd point out that while I generally try to take bad lies as appropriate times to practice or to demonstrate to myself an understanding of how to accommodate the situation, there are still times when I'll "cheat" a little here and there.

The most evident thing I can think of is when I suspect I might damage my club in some form or fashion. I can live with sliding my ball a few feet if I feel like it's going to avoid a permanent gash in the bottom of one of my irons.

I did that to a PW one time and I could NEVER get over the mark I'd left. It was just so ugly and glaring on the sole of the forged clubhead. I will certainly make an attempt to avoid that happening again and feel no qualms about it.


I paid good money for these irons. I keep them clean and in good condition. I paid money to be out here playing. I'm not going to endanger myself or my clubs and I don't expect anyone else to either. That's my attitude in those instances.

[MelloYello]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1381531831' post='7989187']
There are public clubs around here that don't post whether or not its summer or winter rules. I mentioned on page 1 at my home club we always play according to course rules depending on what they are.

If i'm playing a public course that doesn't declare, [b]i'll decide based on what i think it would be. i don't feel bad about doing that[/b]

I don't like mudballs though, i know that's "part of the game", but if i hit it in the fairway and then the ball has a pound of mud on it that sends the ball OB when i hit it....no fun
[/quote]

The whole point of golf is that there is as little governance as possible.

If you're doing what you think is right, then I believe you'll get into golf heaven. I don't think the Golf Gods would want it any other way.

Might sound a little hippie, but the whole point of golf is that we police ourselves in accordance with the spirit of the game. The official rules, which I'm certainly not throwing out, are simply a reflection of the time period and of the assumed playing conditions.

I believe the idea is that you play under the most stringent yet fair rules for any situation. If you're preparing for a tournament, play by the rules which will be given in that instance. However, there are loads of rounds that are practice. In those situations, play by rules which encourage or support your gaining ability. Maybe you hit from divots because you need practice. Maybe you move the ball because you're working on swing mechanics and want to keep the lies as constant and ideal as possible.

You should always make situationally-appropriate decisions and defend them as such. If I'm playing with a friend, we agree on the rules. If I'm playing with a supervisor, I let them have more say. It's obvious.

What about situations where the course intended you have a good lie? Maybe it [i]should've [/i]been marked "Ground Under Repair" but wasn't?

The idea for me is that if I pay $50 for a round of golf and the course is attempting to and meaning to give me appropriate lies, I'm going to "fix the situation" when it calls for it. That sounds bad but imagine you hit your approach to 20 feet and your looking to 2-putt for par and get out of Dodge. You notice a dead, sandy spot extending through the first three feet of your putt.

That's not fair to me versus my opponent! That's just bad luck. And just because the golf course is not in perfect shape I should suffer?

I believe there's a rule that allows for the ball to be moved in the case of a dead area on the green, but regardless, the course didn't intend for that spot to hinder me in that situation and so I SHOULD be allowed to move my ball a foot left or right to a spot that doesn't increase my percentage of putts made from that distance with that break but which gets me away from the dead area.

[Guia]

Practice is at the practice range. No such thing as a Practice Round on the course, scores count. If you are practicing on the
course "what are you practicing for"?

On the other hand (and not being too consistent about rules) assume you are playing a friendly round (and posting score), you
or your friend just got a new driver and haven't had time to hit it. I see nothing wrong with hitting an extra shot with that club as
long if it not for score.

Okay, now BBQ me.

[MelloYello]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1381539078' post='7989697']
Practice is at the practice range. No such thing as a Practice Round on the course, scores count. If you are practicing on the
course "what are you practicing for"?

On the other hand (and not being too consistent about rules) assume you are playing a friendly round (and posting score), you
or your friend just got a new driver and haven't had time to hit it. I see nothing wrong with hitting an extra shot with that club as
long if it not for score.

Okay, now BBQ me.
[/quote]

I 100% see where you're coming from but I 100% disagree. Every single situation you ever put yourself in is practice for future situations. The job you got when you were 18 was practice for the one you have now. There are simply some instances that count more than others.

Most of the time I am going out to shoot the lowest score possible and so while in the grand scheme of things I see that yes, indeed it was practice, I'm certainly not thinking of it as such during the round itself. But there are a host of instances in which I went out to play fully conscious that I was practicing for some upcoming event.

If I know I have a tee time with friends on a Saturday or Sunday morning, what would you call the quick 9-holes I put in on Friday evening?


Everything is Practice and Practice is Everything.

Differentiating between the two simply requires a shift in paradigm.

[somaplr]

[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1381540032' post='7989771']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1381539078' post='7989697']
Practice is at the practice range. No such thing as a Practice Round on the course, scores count. If you are practicing on the
course "what are you practicing for"?

On the other hand (and not being too consistent about rules) assume you are playing a friendly round (and posting score), you
or your friend just got a new driver and haven't had time to hit it. I see nothing wrong with hitting an extra shot with that club as
long if it not for score.

Okay, now BBQ me.
[/quote]

I 100% see where you're coming from but I 100% disagree. Every single situation you ever put yourself in is practice for future situations. The job you got when you were 18 was practice for the one you have now. There are simply some instances that count more than others.

Most of the time I am going out to shoot the lowest score possible and so while in the grand scheme of things I see that yes, indeed it was practice, I'm certainly not thinking of it as such during the round itself. But there are a host of instances in which I went out to play fully conscious that I was practicing for some upcoming event.

If I know I have a tee time with friends on a Saturday or Sunday morning, what would you call the quick 9-holes I put in on Friday evening?


Everything is Practice and Practice is Everything.

Differentiating between the two simply requires a shift in paradigm.
[/quote]

"Practice....we talkin bout PRACTICE?! Not a game. But PRACTICE?!!?"

- Iverson

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1381503484' post='7986783']
[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1381501930' post='7986641']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1381501540' post='7986619']
[quote name='mjtoal' timestamp='1381498770' post='7986375']
This is a parochial American issue. I have been amazed at the willingness of players in the US to roll the ball into a good lie and then at the end of the round say their score would go towards their handicap.

Real golfers of any handicap don't improve their lie unless winter or other weather-related rules specifically allow it. End of story.
[/quote]

There is no way you know what parochial means based on how you used it. Get a dictionary out before you try to look like a smart guy. I hate to break it to everyone here who is a "serious" golfer but golf is a casual social thing for 99 percent of people and if you aren't getting paid to do it you should lighten up realize you aren't that important. If you are playing a tournament of any kind obviously you play by the rules to a T, but get off your high horse the guy moving his ball obviously doesn't care so why should you. Threads like this boggle my mind.
[/quote]

High horse? Nearly all if the posts have said "don't care what someone else does"

Most of the indignant posts are from those that are clearly uncomfortable and feel the need to justify why they intentionally violate the rules. If there is any high horse here, its from those trying to justify their behavior.

And, as I said before, if you feel like you need to justify it, might be worth some time evaluating if you should be doing it. Not that it matters to me - just friendly advice.
[/quote]

Yea but you said LCP is not cheating because of "local rules"...well what if we have standing local rules in our group to roll it?? Still cheating?? What if our head pro says the local rule is to roll it?? Or does this apply only to tournaments and committes declaring LCP??

Bottom line...I play whatever rules the group or tournament I am playing in declare. If they say move it everywhere but a hazard and ob then thats what I will do. If the tournament says move it everywhere or play it down then thats what I will do. A casual round Im playing with my dad, Im going to bump it around if I want to and you can call it cheating if you want but its not in my eyes.
[/quote]

There is no local rule option in the rules to allow rolling it around.

Doesn't matter if you think it is cheating or not - the rules are pretty clear on this. If you intentionally violate a known rule, I don't know any other way to define cheating.

Doesn't make you a bad person, or even a cheater, just someone that cheats at golf. No big deal - don't justify it. Embrace it. Unless you feel like being someone that cheats at golf is something you don't want to be...If that's the case, then change it.

No skin off my back.

[dunksb757]

I don't consider myself a better player (15 hdcp)but If I stripe it down the fairway and my ball lands in a spot of burnt out junk, or dirt patch, I'm gonna move it to some grass. A divot is another story. No moving the ball then. And when I say, move it, I mean drop it within a club. "Cheating" or not, I feel fine about it. My wallet can only afford to play non top notch courses so "junky" fairways, unfortunately, are more the norm than I would like.

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1381497792' post='7986283']
[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1381496481' post='7986205']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1381495398' post='7986107']
Ok so I have read most of the responses and am giggling at the "elitist" or the "purist" who call moving the ball cheating. So let me ask this, if you are playing in a tournament and they have lift, clean, and place going on, are you going to play it down? Your answer is probably no because the "tournament committee" has agreed to make the rule. So when I play in my money game, can we not make a "local rule" to move the ball in the fairway??

I will also say that some of the people calling movers of the golf ball cheaters have probably "bent" the rules in some of their casual rounds as well. Ever get a new club and leave it in the bag with all the others so that you have 15 clubs?? Ever hit your Titliest in the water and pull a different type of ball out to continue play?? Tap down a spike mark? Move sand when you arent on the green??
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Also, have I done some of those things? Yes, I have cheated. Just say it. Not proud of carrying two putters in practice rounds because I wasn't sure which one I wanted to play in the tournament, but, yes, in that practice round I intentionally violated the rules. I cheated.

Its not that hard to say.
[/quote]

Yea but to me thats not cheating. It is a practice round/casual round. If you feel it is cheating then why not hammer the pga guys who take a few too many clubs out in practice/casual rounds??
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Again, not hammering anybody. Just wondering why the steadfast refusal to admit that moving the ball around is cheating. I don't care how anybody plays golf (well, not entirely true - I hope the tour continues to abide by ALL of the rules in stipulated rounds), but I do get concerned by the justification used for intentionally disregarding the rules, followed by an assertion that someone doesn't consider it cheating.

Bad road to go down, but I guess you can't teach those that don't want to learn.

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[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1381539078' post='7989697']
Practice is at the practice range. No such thing as a Practice Round on the course, scores count. If you are practicing on the
course "what are you practicing for"?

On the other hand (and not being too consistent about rules) assume you are playing a friendly round (and posting score), you
or your friend just got a new driver and haven't had time to hit it. I see nothing wrong with hitting an extra shot with that club as
long if it not for score.

Okay, now BBQ me.
[/quote]

Agree - I don't see anything wrong with it either, but it is cheating.

Not sure why some can't admit it. I've hit another players club to try it out during a non-tournament round and posted the score. I cheated - intentionally violated a couple of rules.

Haven't rolled it around since I was 14 or so though. Call me inconsistent if you want - but I never said anyone SHOULD do anything specific EXCEPT admit that intentionally violating a rule means you cheated.

[GWD]

How do you guys view this circumstance.

As a preface, lots of people who miss a short putt will drag it back and hit it again for practice. Still, the first putt that is missed is scored.

In the fairway, with nobody waiting, I'll toss down a second ball after hitting the first for a score. The second ball, from a better lie, is picked up when I get to where it ends.

Would the non-scoring practice ball be considered cheating in the case of the putt and/or in the fairway.

To be clear, this would be in a casual round, not a competition in any way. However, I've seen pros practice putts in match play but have never seen them hit a second shot from the fairway for practice.

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[quote name='garywdixon' timestamp='1381545442' post='7990169']
How do you guys view this circumstance.

As a preface, lots of people who miss a short putt will drag it back and hit it again for practice. Still, the first putt that is missed is scored.

In the fairway, with nobody waiting, I'll toss down a second ball after hitting the first for a score. The second ball, from a better lie, is picked up when I get to where it ends.

Would the non-scoring practice ball be considered cheating in the case of the putt and/or in the fairway.

To be clear, this would be in a casual round, not a competition in any way. However, I've seen pros practice putts in match play but have never seen them hit a second shot from the fairway for practice.
[/quote]

Practice on a completed hole is allowed unless prohibited by the committee. Generally always allowed in match play.

Technically speaking, hitting another shot before the hole is completed is a violation.

Pretty sure that's right. You would get a definitive answer in the rules sub-forum.

[HnyBgrDontCare]

Why do you care about what someone else is doing? Why not worry about your own game? If he's just getting out for a few hours to enjoy the day, who cares what he does? Seriously, he paid for the round, there's no bets / tourneys who cares? It's ALL practice until its tournament day.