Instructional threads disappointment

[Mitchell]

If mods choose to delete this so be it, but feel this needs to be said- what happened to this section of the forum? I recall a point in the not too distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned, even if the questioning is lacking class in manner of approach. Hope this improves and class, respect, and civility upon which site was founded returns post haste before many here decide to go elsewhere.

[dirthead]

Agree 100%. I spent two days in Jacksonville with Dan Carraher (iteachgolf). I spend several hours yesterday with Martin Chuck. They are both standup guys that know the golf swing inside out. They both are passionate about helping people play better golf. At one time or another, they were both regular posters on the forum, giving free info to lots of people. Now they seldom if ever post. I'm not going to get into why they don't post anymore, as it's not really my place, but the fact that they don't is really tragic. Go a little further back in time and I believe the same thing happened to Geoff Jones. To have instructors of this level willing to share their time and knowledge with us, for free, is something we should all be grateful for. We shouldn't get into petty internet arguments, especially turning personal, when these guys are willing to give so much. It's really just stupid. I don't blame them at all for leaving the forum. We aren't going to agree with everything they say, but that doesn't mean it always has to turn into a b**** fest that carries on for days. Losing them as regular contributors hurts us and it hurts the forum. Anytime you have someone willing to do what they were doing, you should embrace it, not throw it out like yesterday's trash. Jim and Monte have gotten into some spats with "internet experts", so if history stays true, it won't be long until they decide posting here isn't worth their time. Another loss for us. Then the ones that continually pick fights will be the first ones complaining about there not being any professional instructors posting on here anymore. How fitting.

[4rheel]

+1

[HappyGolf]

It's an emotive subject because there are always two sides, someone hooks it and another slices it, one is holding onto the lag too much where the other guy has none, someone is hitting thin shots and the other is hitting too much down. One thing you see that says bump the hips is met full in the face with one that says don't....

Put these two [b]short videos[/b] into a room full of people that don't know what they are talking about (or looking at) and see what happens....

Video 1 "Drive the hip into the wall"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixPSMG1m9Sc


Video 2 "Don't drive the hip"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEBM5ZKs-U


It's really hard (and a waste of time) to look into it any more than that... I'm sure someone will probably want to argue both of these.... because that's just what happens in this environment

[JSouth]

Dirthead well said. There are certain internet experts ruining it for a lot people on the instructional side of the this forum. Also there is a lot of BS going on in the equipment forums as well. Someone always has to chime in with some kind of non-sense that isnt necessary. And then every one gets into a pissing match, and it just doesnt look good for the website. Also on the equipment forums its bashing TM constantly, or how callaway is awful because Phil is using a TM driver. The only post worth reading on this website anymore; is the first post that easyyy post about new equipment he shot at the current pga event.

Instead of mods eagle eyeing the BST for some little mistake someone has made posting an ad. I think more time should be banning the people that start all the nonsense. Golfwrx is not as fun as it used to be that is for sure.

[ctmason_98]

The refrain I keep seeing is how important it is to discuss these ideas and that leads somehow to better instruction for players.

I don't see that as being the case at all. Golf (sports?) instruction is best when it's delivered to a small group or one person, with appropriate feedback and testing. An internet forum doesn't provide that really. Don't get me wrong it is much appreciated what many here do to help others, but I think it's inevitable that people attempting to post helpful suggestions will get frustrated and walk away.

Defending why you're teaching something a certain way is a waste of time. Either it works for students or doesn't.

Also, my impression is that there are thousands of pages disagreeing over simple semantics and word usage. That doesn't promote good instruction for anyone.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1382141659' post='8024111']
It's an emotive subject because there are always two sides, someone hooks it and another slices it, one is holding onto the lag too much where the other guy has none, someone is hitting thin shots and the other is hitting too much down. One thing you see that says bump the hips is met full in the face with one that says don't....

Put these two [b]short videos[/b] into a room full of people that don't know what they are talking about (or looking at) and see what happens....

Video 1 "Drive the hip into the wall"

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixPSMG1m9Sc[/media]


Video 2 "Don't drive the hip"

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEBM5ZKs-U[/media]


It's really hard (and a waste of time) to look into it any more than that... I'm sure someone will probably want to argue both of these.... because that's just what happens in this environment
[/quote]

uuugh, drive the hips, don't drive the hips. this game is confusing

[Tanner25]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382139341' post='8023901']
If mods choose to delete this so be it, but feel this needs to be said- what happened to this section of the forum? I recall a point in the not to distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned, even if the questioning is lacking class in manner of approach. Hope this improves and class, respect, and civility upon which site was founded returns post haste before many here decide to go elsewhere.
[/quote]

Good post, today Dan (DWF) was laid into by a bunch of idiots today. The guy is kind of enough to return and he is greeted by that kind of reception. Just awful.

Tanner

[ej002]

Yawn.

It's nothing new, has been this way since the beginning. It always gets heated here. It's cyclical. Someone gets a name, people take shots... Debate ensues, people get mad and so goes it again the next day. Sometimes people chose to leave Slice, Dana, Dan sevem, Martinez.... Sometimes they get banned Jeff, Jeffy, Dariusz, sometimes they get chased out burley lol... Sometimes they get benched....

If you read through the bs you can learn ALOT. And you will laugh your a** off in the mean time. Today was another one of those days. big deal.

It's actually good bc some of these guys need a reality check and have been spewin some bs

[JasonFL]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1382142441' post='8024183']
Yawn.


If you read through the bs you can learn ALOT.
[/quote]

^^^ This

Theres a one plane swing. A two plane swing. A tweener plane swing.....And a golfWRX plane swing (which is what happens when you listen to every piece of advice you receive on WRX).

[dirthead]

Trying to teach people on the internet is a very tricky proposition. I'm a fairly good player and when both Dan and Martin asked me what I thought was going on in my swing, my ideas of what I needed to work on weren't actually the case. Videos, books, and even instruction given here is only going to be "general" swing information. You can over do or under do anything in the swing. What you feel you are doing or not doing is going to be wrong 90% of the time. These guys should be judged on the instruction they give in person. That's what counts in the real world. They look at your swing in person, they diagnose your problem, they make corrections. The in person instruction is invaluable because of the back and forth communication that happens to make sure you understand what you need to do. That doesn't happen very well on the internet. The swingfix videos are a step in that direction, but they are not like being in front of one of these guys for a few hours.

For example, I've been working lately on keeping my hands in front of the ball at impact. A very simple thing and a very important thing in a golf swing. Guess what, I overdid it. Didn't feel that way. As soon as you watch some video and look at trackman data, it's very obvious that my current swing has too much shaft lean at impact with too much of a descending strike. I would have never guessed that. Even looking at video of myself I would have never picked that up. Martin was on it within minutes. Giving me several "feels" that will help correct the problem, in person, and showing me with his own swing, in person, is absolutely invaluable.

Talking about swing philosophy, whether you should have a hip slide or not, whether the forearms roll or not, whether there should be early wrist c0ck or not, is all relative to an individuals natural swing pattern and tendency. There can be gross examples of anything that obviously need to be changed, but debating how one of these guys explains something is just stupid. Most threads of late started with good intentions and ended by being locked because of all the bickering and fighting. Out of a 10 page thread, there could be only 10 posts on topic.

Debate is fine. Discussion is fine. Differences of opinion are fine. If we could discuss these different ideas or opinions constructively, we would all benefit. A lot of the discussion is where the learn the most. When it gets to the point of name calling and pointless bickering, it makes everyone involved look childish. I mean seriously, if one of our kids was involved in some of these threads, and came to us asking advise on how to handle the situation, what would we do? What would we tell them to do? I've actually seen 6 year olds fighting over the same toy treat each other with more respect than grown ups on this forum.

[drudixon]

It's just people. Go to a lifting site, car site, baseball, whatever. It's the Internet, so everyone is an expert and a tough guy. Golf sadly isn't immune.

Tho, with the broadening pool of players, you'll see some fighting on the course too.

[mccarthyizm]

I think heated debate is a good thing, but it's not like most of the teachers posting here are anonymous. They have their credentials, their happy customers, etc. I don't think people should blindly accept what somebody says just because they're an instructor, but I'm tired of the self-proclaimed know-it-alls rudely denouncing those that have a history of helping people and delivering content to this site. I don't really blame those instructors for telling the offending parties to get lost.

Not all opinions are created equal. I wouldn't want anybody listening to me here, nor would I expect to win any battles in the court of public opinion by going after the actual instructors who post here.

If I were a financial consultant offering free advice on a forum, I'd probably get tired of a golf instructor challenging my every word.

Put another way, I wouldn't even lurk here if it weren't for the established instructors posting. Have you seen some of the other golf instruction forums out there? It's Ricky the self-proclaimed guru selling his SPIN-TACULAR SLOT SLAP SCORE SECRET (2.0) to a band of hopeless seekers. I don't see that sort of thing here.

[lv_2_hack]

It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.

[scratch72]

It seems all the good instructors have bailed. except Monte, hope he stays around long enough to finish a couple vids he promised.
You know its getting bad when a thread titled { Refusing to be paired up} is a big hit.

[i am taylor(made)]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.

[ksuchris2000]

That
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Read. closer. Next. Time.

[HateTheHighDraw]

I'm sad to see some of the things that have happened, I've learned so much on here about the golf swing and my golf swing. People need to stop hiding behind the keyboard and remember the golden rule. Act as if the person was standing in front of you. Feel free to disagree and discuss, but be a good person.

[i am taylor(made)]

[quote name='ksuchris2000' timestamp='1382148879' post='8024657']
That
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Read. closer. Next. Time.
[/quote]

Write in proper sentences. Nothing i said was wrong. You cant tell if someone is a good teacher or know what they are talking about just by knowing their handicap.

[HappyGolf]

Credentials? happy customers? experts? - didn't the pros teaching the path dictates where the ball starts for the past 30yrs have all of these things?

The things you mention are generally subjective. I could find 100 people who will tell you that their golf pro is a brilliant instructor, he teaches them if they want to hit the ball further right they have to swing out more... they all play off h/caps of 10-28 but he's fantastic, very patient, and looks great in that Armani sweater

Would you take your 200K sports car to someone who got 20 jalopy's running for 20 very happy pensioners?





[quote]You [b]can[/b] tell if someone is a good teacher or know what they are talking about just by knowing their handicap[/quote]

Didn't you mean CAN'T?

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382149144' post='8024681']
[quote name='ksuchris2000' timestamp='1382148879' post='8024657']
That
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Read. closer. Next. Time.
[/quote]

Write in proper sentences. Nothing i said was wrong. You can tell if someone is a good teacher or know what they are talking about just by knowing their handicap.
[/quote]

I think you misunderstood lv-2-hack use of 'handicap'

[ksuchris2000]

[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382149144' post='8024681']
[quote name='ksuchris2000' timestamp='1382148879' post='8024657']
That
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Read. closer. Next. Time.
[/quote]

Write in proper sentences. Nothing i said was wrong. You can tell if someone is a good teacher or know what they are talking about just by knowing their handicap.
[/quote]

Obviously you lack the capability to comprehend English in a common sentence structure as the post you continue to misunderstand simply eludes you. It was clear to me, and I'm confident the rest of the English speaking world, that he was saying "...wish we had some type of handicap system..." in order to translate teaching skills to a ranking system.

Nowhere in his post did he compare a golf handicap to teaching ability.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Big difference between calling football plays and teaching cause and effect in the golf swing. I never said you had to be a good player to teach. I just said I wish there was a way we could handicap the words that are written so my words and your words aren't weighted the exact same.

[Mitchell]

I understand and appreciate debate, even spirited debate, but the reference to members and instructors in such deragatory manner is tiresome. If we each take personal responsibility for our own actions and strive to improve community and sharing of information rather than taking differences on such an emotional level, this board can overcome growing pains associated with increased membership. If we are not aware of the need to remain positive, integrity and reputation will suffer unnecessarily.

Edit- Wow, even a thread trying to encourage others to remain positive starts to go sideways, shameful !

[Hoganstriker]

There's many different camps in golf and their viewpoints differ greatly. All adamantly believe in their version. It leads to strife. It is what it is. Theres no substitute for one on one instruction. Do it yourself golf trying to interpret internet postings is definitely doing things the hardest way possible. That said some good info leaks out of all camps from time to time while they defend their views so it all has some value.
The hardest decision in golf can be to decide on something and see it through rather than dump it and move on to the next 'tip.' Understanding one swing vs another is not easy. It should be paramount though to understand the methodology you are working with and what something ideal within that methodology is and why it looks that way.
The toughest thing in golf I could imagine would be just trying to 'improve' without some method. At that point it's a crapshoot if you lack a defined path.
For me I went off the map just working at random for quite some time fix this fix that improve this improve that. When I began down the right path it all became so much more clear. I prefer proven fundamentals over fixes and band aids and there's just not that much to worry about fundamentally.
The thing that killed me for years was failing to understand fundamentals.
With the help of my coach things make sense for me now.
The bottom line is you have to expect clash. You have different values placed by different sects on different aspects they consider fundamental. It's like the Middle East.
Every golfer who is not blessed with a naturally sweet or pure move is forced to choose. Until you choose you are kind of a patchwork quilt of different ideas and you're always close to something good. Once you make a couple basic decisions you move on to knowing exactly what to work on and how to do it it's only a matter of your own effort.
For me the sad thing was when I had max effort and time I was trying to do it myself and looking online and all and ultimately I hit a ceiling real quick because I did not work with a great old school pro. Since I changed that up a year or two ago there is no ceiling the question is just how much work do I care to put in.
Clarity is priceless. Having it means I am damn opinionated and I may not like some good swings because they are fundamentally unsound relative to my point of view.
After time in golf it's the way you get you get locked in and if it's stack and tilt great if it's classical mechanics great but take those two guys and lock em in a cage and you got an argument.
Conflict makes the whole herd stronger so I like it and it makes the site better.
I have serious questions about the guy whose kind of 'off the island' now though with those scores- talking game and having game are two very different things.
Golf is the best sport-it's an equalizer sport.
Viva la difference!

[i am taylor(made)]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382149426' post='8024709']
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Big difference between calling football plays and teaching cause and effect in the golf swing. I never said you had to be a good player to teach. I just said I wish there was a way we could handicap the words that are written so my words and your words aren't weighted the exact same.
[/quote]

good in theory, but there is no way in the world to say who is a better teacher than someone else. its all subjective. just look at hank haney. always high on rating lists, but most say he sucks.

[wmblake2000]

I think the problem is there is no way to get objective feedback on how well this or that teacher has helped people, and certainly not in this environment. How do you handicap teachers in this environment? I don't think the community can do this, like with drivers or whatever.

But there are always people who don't want to discuss differences but instead want to prove they are 'right' who spend their energy demeaning rather than offering constructive ideas. These are often people who are failing to gather support for their ideas or persona.. These people should be quickly banned. Golfwrx should protect the obviously credible instructors who contribute substance. With no real handicap process possible, they need to play the role of expert and protect their asset.

[b]This is not a democracy, and they should err on the side of protecting valuable contributors. [/b]

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382149967' post='8024761']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382149426' post='8024709']
[quote name='i am taylor(made)' timestamp='1382148579' post='8024627']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382147672' post='8024533']
It's always going to happen when we are discussing something that is so detailed with so many different ways to achieve the same thing.

I still wish we had some type of handicap system when it comes to posting. People on here are very gullible. A lot of times an idiots word is weighted the same as an expert. Wish we could figure out a way to get around that.
[/quote]

how does handicap and knowledge or teaching ability have anything to do with one another? i dont think it does. you dont have to be a good golfer to know what your talking about and how to teach it. Look at any other sport. There are plenty of pro football coaches or pro basketball coaches who never played that sport professionally. Some never played in college probably.
[/quote]

Big difference between calling football plays and teaching cause and effect in the golf swing. I never said you had to be a good player to teach. I just said I wish there was a way we could handicap the words that are written so my words and your words aren't weighted the exact same.
[/quote]

good in theory, but there is no way in the world to say who is a better teacher than someone else. its all subjective. just look at hank haney. always high on rating lists, but most say he sucks.
[/quote]

Not talking teacher to teacher. Talking more poster to poster. I agree we won't find the best instructor but IMO the problems haven't been an instructor vs an instructor debate. It's been more of an instructor vs a few crazy idiots that don't know what they're talking about. I wish there was a way we could filter out the idiots before ever having to debate/call them out. Probably won't ever happen but worth a thought.

[i am taylor(made)]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1382150206' post='8024779']
I think the problem is there is no way to get objective feedback on how well this or that teacher has helped people, and certainly not in this environment. How do you handicap teachers in this environment? I don't think the community can do this, like with drivers or whatever.

But there are always people who don't want to discuss differences but instead want to prove they are 'right' who spend their energy demeaning rather than offering constructive ideas. These are often people who are failing to gather support for their ideas or persona.. These people should be quickly banned. Golfwrx should protect the obviously credible instructors who contribute substance. With no real handicap process possible, they need to play the role of expert and protect their asset.

[b]This is not a democracy, and they should err on the side of protecting valuable contributors. [/b]
[/quote]

all information is valuable, even if its wrong. Its just teaching you one more thing not to do. Determining whats good and bad is another story that only the golfer can decide.

Everyone is aloud to dispute their theory and dispute others theory. It just has to be done in a respectful manner. Its just certain posters take offense when others disagree with them and get in a hissy fit. There's a certain poster on this forum that does it all the time and im pissed about it. not going to say who it is.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1382150206' post='8024779']
I think the problem is there is no way to get objective feedback on how well this or that teacher has helped people, and certainly not in this environment. How do you handicap teachers in this environment? I don't think the community can do this, like with drivers or whatever.

But there are always people who don't want to discuss differences but instead want to prove they are 'right' who spend their energy demeaning rather than offering constructive ideas. These are often people who are failing to gather support for their ideas or persona.. These people should be quickly banned. Golfwrx should protect the obviously credible instructors who contribute substance. With no real handicap process possible, they need to play the role of expert and protect their asset.

[b]This is not a democracy, and they should err on the side of protecting valuable contributors. [/b]
[/quote]

Agreed