High loft, Forwad CG- Fad or the Future

[ephmen]

Wrxers,

Is the high loft, forward cg that we are seeing with SLDR, Jetspeed etc based on real science or is it just the latest fad from TM (ie white clubs) that will go by the wayside in a few years? Would really like input from those who truly understand clubs and the science of golf.

 

Thanks in advance!

[kdog25]

Oddly enough I was wondering the same thing. In addition wouldn't moving the weight that way have a negative effect on forgiveness?

[halfsumo]

It's real! Watch, in 5 months, Taylormade will figure out that moving the CG even higher and closer to the face will result in more distance. Then 5 months later, they will magically figure out that if they move it again it will result in more distance. Then once they run out of room, they'll start moving it lower and further back again.

The reality is that the COR is maxed, the MOI is maxed and the shaft length that people can handle is maxed. The only way to squeeze out any extra distance is to fine tune the launch for your swing. I would argue that with enough shafts, loft options and lead tape, you could perfectly fine tune any driver from the last 10 years and hit them all the same distance.

[nova6868]

But can you max the MOI with a forward CG?

I'm skeptical.

[DaBigSaus]

[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1384304501' post='8140138']
But can you max the MOI with a forward CG?

I'm skeptical.
[/quote]

No. You can't. The moi in the SLDR isn't maxed out. But with less spin and more loft = more distance. That's why it's longer than the g25, 913, R1, etc....

The higher the moi the more forgiving though. Which the SLDR is not the most forgiving club in the world. But the reduced spin makes those bad shots not as bad...

Just my 2 cents...

[lexisdaddy1]

If you really want to know how good it works, take a few strips of lead tape and put it on the sole of the driver as close to the face as possible. Until the powers that be get control of the golf ball situation, I think that this is here to stay. Since today's golf ball doesn't spin off of the driver, more loft is needed. Since professionals have no trouble getting getting the ball into the stratosphere, low, deep COG is not really a good thing for them. So, to achieve perfect launch conditions (about 17 degrees with about 1700 spin rate) the COG has got to be moved forward and the loft must increase.
I heard that Brian Gay had a ball speed of around 155 MPH (about 105 MPH swingspeed roughly) and he is now carrying the ball around 280 and rolling out to just over 300. Just a testament to the low spinning golf ball and the SLDR forward COG/high loft he has in play. The numbers tell the story.
If you can get a guy on tour that has an average SS of 105 MPH and tell him you can get him out there around 300 yards total distance, imagine what it can do for the average player if they are fitted correctly.

[MadGolfer76]

Shaping up to be a rich discussion...

edit: I take that back.

[Yepyukon]

I guess you could call this both here to stay and a fad. The technology is sound and you are starting to see it advertised. It is actually great for the fitter who preaches that the average golfer doesn't need to hit an 8.5* driver, but that is another rant.

The Covert and SLDR have very similar technology and, using a flightscope, have shown to be 2 of the consistently lowest spinning drivers currently on the market. There will obviously be some tweaking with next generations.

Wait a few years though and you will see vendors starting to release drivers that are 43.5-44.5" in length and advertising it that they are straighter with the same head technology to keep the spin down. Then we will have made the full fad circle, haha.

[LittleLeftToRight]

They can move the COG all over kingdom come but it is still the swing that determines the majority of the flight characteristics. I was at a GS tonight hitting my driver and someone handed me a SLDR. After a few whacks he commented that it didn't help my numbers at all. Clubs aren't magic bullets.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='LittleLeftToRight' timestamp='1384312913' post='8140942']
They can move the COG all over kingdom come but it is still the swing that determines the majority of the flight characteristics. I was at a GS tonight hitting my driver and someone handed me a SLDR. After a few whacks he commented that it didn't help my numbers at all. Clubs aren't magic bullets.
[/quote]

s500's????

Sorry...

[lexisdaddy1]

[quote name='LittleLeftToRight' timestamp='1384312913' post='8140942']
They can move the COG all over kingdom come but it is still the swing that determines the majority of the flight characteristics. I was at a GS tonight hitting my driver and someone handed me a SLDR. After a few whacks he commented that it didn't help my numbers at all. Clubs aren't magic bullets.
[/quote]

Correct, they are not magic bullets. But, if fitted properly, you can always squeeze out a little more yardage and better numbers during a professional fitting. Having someone hand you a SLDR that does not fit you properly and you base your assumptions on that, I can see where it would not help you, or anyone else for that matter, at all.

[halfsumo]

Good stuff here:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/881490-wishon-the-most-important-fitting-elements-for-distance/

[cornbred19]

with this now being all about higher loft/low spin for more distance etc etc...what do you do when the wind is in your face? hitting a low shot with low spin doesn't seem like a good option especially if you have to carry the ball a certain distance...i'm sure good/great ballstrikers can get away with it... but most of the golfing public?

[PreppySlapCut]

For the better player, the notion of max forgiveness is unnecessary. The SLDR is plenty forgiving. I have literally never hit a driver this well for consistency, distance, and accuracy.

[wascana]

For golfers that have low swing speed and hit their drivers less than 200 yards wouldn't the SLDR be a poor choice? Assume would need to have more spin a CG back?

[DaBigSaus]

[quote name='wascana' timestamp='1384358464' post='8142820']
For golfers that have low swing speed and hit their drivers less than 200 yards wouldn't the SLDR be a poor choice? Assume would need to have more spin a CG back?
[/quote]

You'd be surprised. With the right shaft it could fit. But until you get fit it's all guesses.

[Waterboy]

I think this club design will be here for a bit but its not going to take over the market. It will be just another option that mfg are putting out.

Some players still need ball spin and launch angle.

[mr_divots]

I was trying to think back to a club with a more forward COG and the last time this was the "newest, bestest thing ever."

I had to think back ALL the way to 2005, but this one came to mind, and it was none too easy to hit for me anyway:

 

My R11s Driver also seems to have a fairly forward COG thanks to the position of the MWT's in the head:

 

I can see the COG location benefitting faster swingers, but all the loft in the world can't overcome less than optimal spin rates (too low) for those who need a little spin. I mostly see the SLDR's as a specialty club for faster swingers based on the COG location. The feel of clubs with a COG so close to the face feel harsh to me at impact. My R11s certainly exhibits some of this. Also needed to go to 10.5 in that head due to spin rate.

I think there is also a little more immediate expulsion of the ball with a forward COG locaton. With it pushed back the gear effect I think has more of a chance to "save" the shot a bit for ya with a lower, further back location.

 

If the golf balls weren't spinning less all the time, the SLDR would make more sense to me. But considering the golf balls, I find it curious that it would fit a wide range of players. I'd like to try one with a proper shaft and adequate loft anyway just to see if my suspicions are met. I suspect my R11s would be neck and neck. The golf club limits are just proving too much to overcome to be finding any "holy grails" of distance by this point. People that do find success with the SLDR will have gone through a fitting, and it's tough to tell how much of it is finally having a proper fit and how much is "innovation." My money is on the fitting.

[starsail85]

How much more loft can be added before you start to notice losses of ballspeed due to the glancing contact of a lofted face?

[DaBigSaus]

I was trying to think back to a club with a more forward COG and the last time this was the "newest, bestest thing ever."

I had to think back ALL the way to 2005, but this one came to mind, and it was none too easy to hit for me anyway:

 

My R11s Driver also seems to have a fairly forward COG thanks to the position of the MWT's in the head:

 

I can see the COG location benefitting faster swingers, but all the loft in the world can't overcome less than optimal spin rates (too low) for those who need a little spin. I mostly see the SLDR's as a specialty club for faster swingers based on the COG location. The feel of clubs with a COG so close to the face feel harsh to me at impact. My R11s certainly exhibits some of this. Also needed to go to 10.5 in that head due to spin rate.

I think there is also a little more immediate expulsion of the ball with a forward COG locaton. With it pushed back the gear effect I think has more of a chance to "save" the shot a bit for ya with a lower, further back location.

 

If the golf balls weren't spinning less all the time, the SLDR would make more sense to me. But considering the golf balls, I find it curious that it would fit a wide range of players. I'd like to try one with a proper shaft and adequate loft anyway just to see if my suspicions are met. I suspect my R11s would be neck and neck. The golf club limits are just proving too much to overcome to be finding any "holy grails" of distance by this point. People that do find success with the SLDR will have gone through a fitting, and it's tough to tell how much of it is finally having a proper fit and how much is "innovation." My money is on the fitting.

 

I appreciate your view divots. And you know me. I loved my clubs. But when I was fit for both my R1, SLDR and my ping fairway and hybrid. The SLDR won every time. Even matched up against an R11s, Anser driver, G25, Bridgestone J40, etc. I've hit them all. Nothing was "neck and neck" for me than the SLDR. Easy choice.

[Bubb]

I believe most amateur golfers put too much spin on their drives and it costs them distance. Because COR is maxed out, reducing spin is the best way to squeeze out more distance. I've been through a lot of drivers and they all spun too much, until now. The temps have been in the 40's here and I've hit some of my longest drives of the year. I don't love everything about my current driver, (XCG6), but it sure keeps the spin down.

I've also wondered if having the weight so far out of line with the shaft affects accuracy in that the club head twists more, but this is just a guess. It seems to make sense that moving weight more in line with the shaft puts less torque on the shaft. I don't know.

[Ezgolfer]

SLDR is the only taylormade driver which gives me lot of roll after the ball llands.I have tried multiple TM drivers and stopped buying after R9 as majority of the time the ball will be next to the mark where it landed.
Give this driver a shot.This one is the longest for me , ball feels like flying the same distance in air as my 913 d3. However I am atleast 15 plus yards longer than D3
I have stock 57 speeder non tp and am not interested in changing anything.
Waiting for the fairways and hybrids.
Iwas skeptical with TM marketing and all but this driver is game changer for me.

[aswo3332]

If anyone is familiar with Elk's Secret in the Dirt channel they just uploaded a couple videos of Elk testing an SLDR out and a Taylormade rep discussing the technology of moving up the CG. Also discusses Elk's Speeder Tour Spec 8.3 shaft.

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1384370848' post='8144064']
How much more loft can be added before you start to notice losses of ballspeed due to the glancing contact of a lofted face?
[/quote]

I'm sure Tom or someone can chime in here and correct me if I am wrong, or give you more specifics if I am close, but according to Tutelmans site, it's not all the high.

[url="http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/smashfactor.php"]http://www.tutelman....smashfactor.php[/url]

These numbers may be old/new or be factual/disproven, I do not know. The trust the site and the information from it though.

Keep in mind, you would have to take into account the AoA and dynamic loft as factors. 15* may not give you the same numbers if you are delofting at impact, or have different relationship to AoA and dynamic loft etc. From the way I understand it, it is based on the difference of the AoA and the dynamic loft. You are talking about a glancing blow, so someone with a 15* fairway with a -3AoA and 14* of dynamic loft will achieve a different number than someone with a +3AoA and 14* of dynamic loft.

[sweetswing22]

[quote name='lexisdaddy1' timestamp='1384306217' post='8140278']
If you really want to know how good it works, take a few strips of lead tape and put it on the sole of the driver as close to the face as possible. Until the powers that be get control of the golf ball situation, I think that this is here to stay. Since today's golf ball doesn't spin off of the driver, more loft is needed. Since professionals have no trouble getting getting the ball into the stratosphere, low, deep COG is not really a good thing for them. So, to achieve perfect launch conditions (about 17 degrees with about 1700 spin rate) the COG has got to be moved forward and the loft must increase.
I heard that Brian Gay had a ball speed of around 155 MPH (about 105 MPH swingspeed roughly) and he is now carrying the ball around 280 and rolling out to just over 300. Just a testament to the low spinning golf ball and the SLDR forward COG/high loft he has in play. The numbers tell the story.
If you can get a guy on tour that has an average SS of 105 MPH and tell him you can get him out there around 300 yards total distance, imagine what it can do for the average player if they are fitted correctly.
[/quote] So your saying those of us that have adjustable lofts on are drivers,can just move up to 10.5* or more and put lead tape on the sole close to the face and we'll have a SLDR?

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='sweetswing22' timestamp='1384412239' post='8147120']
[quote name='lexisdaddy1' timestamp='1384306217' post='8140278']
If you really want to know how good it works, take a few strips of lead tape and put it on the sole of the driver as close to the face as possible. Until the powers that be get control of the golf ball situation, I think that this is here to stay. Since today's golf ball doesn't spin off of the driver, more loft is needed. Since professionals have no trouble getting getting the ball into the stratosphere, low, deep COG is not really a good thing for them. So, to achieve perfect launch conditions (about 17 degrees with about 1700 spin rate) the COG has got to be moved forward and the loft must increase.
I heard that Brian Gay had a ball speed of around 155 MPH (about 105 MPH swingspeed roughly) and he is now carrying the ball around 280 and rolling out to just over 300. Just a testament to the low spinning golf ball and the SLDR forward COG/high loft he has in play. The numbers tell the story.
If you can get a guy on tour that has an average SS of 105 MPH and tell him you can get him out there around 300 yards total distance, imagine what it can do for the average player if they are fitted correctly.
[/quote] So your saying those of us that have adjustable lofts on are drivers,can just move up to 10.5* or more and put lead tape on the sole close to the face and we'll have a SLDR?
[/quote]


Not a chance, unless you want to have to add enough lead tape to make that head heavy enough to make it seem like you are swinging a sledgehammer. It takes way too much tape to move the CG like that. The head really would have to be disigned with that desired charactoristic in mind to be able to do it.

[Rocks1717]

[quote name='Rob G.' timestamp='1384306200' post='8140276']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1384304501' post='8140138']
But can you max the MOI with a forward CG?

I'm skeptical.
[/quote]

No. You can't. The moi in the SLDR isn't maxed out. But with less spin and more loft = more distance. That's why it's longer than the g25, 913, R1, etc....

The higher the moi the more forgiving though. Which the SLDR is not the most forgiving club in the world. But the reduced spin makes those bad shots not as bad...

Just my 2 cents...
[/quote]

+1

[mr_divots]

I was trying to think back to a club with a more forward COG and the last time this was the "newest, bestest thing ever."

I had to think back ALL the way to 2005, but this one came to mind, and it was none too easy to hit for me anyway:

 

My R11s Driver also seems to have a fairly forward COG thanks to the position of the MWT's in the head:

 

I can see the COG location benefitting faster swingers, but all the loft in the world can't overcome less than optimal spin rates (too low) for those who need a little spin. I mostly see the SLDR's as a specialty club for faster swingers based on the COG location. The feel of clubs with a COG so close to the face feel harsh to me at impact. My R11s certainly exhibits some of this. Also needed to go to 10.5 in that head due to spin rate.

I think there is also a little more immediate expulsion of the ball with a forward COG locaton. With it pushed back the gear effect I think has more of a chance to "save" the shot a bit for ya with a lower, further back location.

 

If the golf balls weren't spinning less all the time, the SLDR would make more sense to me. But considering the golf balls, I find it curious that it would fit a wide range of players. I'd like to try one with a proper shaft and adequate loft anyway just to see if my suspicions are met. I suspect my R11s would be neck and neck. The golf club limits are just proving too much to overcome to be finding any "holy grails" of distance by this point. People that do find success with the SLDR will have gone through a fitting, and it's tough to tell how much of it is finally having a proper fit and how much is "innovation." My money is on the fitting.

 

I appreciate your view divots. And you know me. I loved my clubs. But when I was fit for both my R1, SLDR and my ping fairway and hybrid. The SLDR won every time. Even matched up against an R11s, Anser driver, G25, Bridgestone J40, etc. I've hit them all. Nothing was "neck and neck" for me than the SLDR. Easy choice.

You were fit for all of those clubs? Really?

[canduff]

They are going to go back to 300cc drivers and tell us all this good stuff is compacted into the head and we can start all over again moving up to 460cc over a few years time. I mean where else can they go

[Arafel]

[quote name='canduff' timestamp='1384449325' post='8148436']
They are going to go back to 300cc drivers and tell us all this good stuff is compacted into the head and we can start all over again moving up to 460cc over a few years time. I mean where else can they go
[/quote]

Exactly. This is a fad until 5 or 6 years from now when TaylorMade will do this again and convince us that this is the future.......again.